First Officers - minimum 1,000 hours tt

[414Flyer]

So in other words the FAA needs to make it harder to be a pilot to help to try to help existing pilots job careers? Thats ludicrous. Why do pilots need to rely on others to solve a problem? Pilots are the ones who have created a lot of this, by being willing to take jobs for low pay. Its not the FAAs fault, nor should up and coming pilots be penalized to benefit people who willing accepted low pay.

Other fields dont have to face these problems, because they dont shoot themselves in the foot by taking mininum wage flying jobs, or flying for free, or paying to fly. How many times were you told as a pilot to just take wherever jobs you can get at first, dont worry about the pay. Just get in there and get the hours now! Well look what thats caused, thats a big part of the problem is when people try to instill this attitude of forgetting about the pay, just get the hours. Well you cant pay your bills on hours.

If pilots stopped taking poverty jobs, a lot of this would be fixed. But as long as people still take those jobs, I certainly dont have any expectations for anyone else to have to come in and fix it. And I certainly dont want the pilot license exams to be made artificailly harder, just to benefit other pilots. Flying is a great freedom we enjoy here, and it should not be denied to others. Thats not a way to fix pay problems.

 

[PltSkiracer]

How about making it harder to get your ATP. In Europe you can get your private, commercial, multi engine instrument without taking the 14 JAA exams. No European airline/company will hire you without the JAA ATPL exams though.

Don't change the private, instrument, commercial, CFI, CFII, MEI requirements, but change the ATP requirements. Make this harder to get!

 

[Mkubwa]

Thought I'd get some sage responses from you geniuses...

So in other words the FAA needs to make it harder to be a pilot to help to try to help existing pilots job careers? Thats ludicrous. Why do pilots need to rely on others to solve a problem? Pilots are the ones who have created a lot of this, by being willing to take jobs for low pay. Its not the FAAs fault, nor should up and coming pilots be penalized to benefit people who willing accepted low pay.

Why do you think the low paying jobs exist in the first place? Maybe because the bloated surplus of pilots creates real competition for these poverty-wage jobs? (If I'm an employer why should I pay one penny more if I don't need to?). Maybe because even a low paying job is deemed superior to paying for flight time out of your own pocket? This ringing any bells, Goethe? Wait... you're independently rich aren't you, Goethe? You can hold out indefinitely waiting for FedEx to come calling, right?

If pilots were a scarce commodity companies would be forced to compete for their services. New, low-compensation companies wouldn't be able to start operations and flood the market with seats driving down the cost of airline tickets because they couldn't find enough affordable labor to man the operation! If employers were stupid enough to offer ridiculously low wages without any chance of significantly improving the pay in a short or strictly defined period of time no **intelligent** and **high-functioning** individual would go into the profession (...our problem today in the civilian ranks, anyway).

Oh, wait! What about doctors? They don't get paid anything while in their residencies (a defined period of apprenticeship)! Therefore I don't have a point right?

Read this (if you can even possibly comprehend it):

http://www.newyorker.com/printables/fact/050404fa_fact

By the way, it's really hard to get into medical school. Standards being what they are, you know.

 

[414Flyer]

Thought I'd get some sage responses from you geniuses...



Why do you think the low paying jobs exist in the first place? Maybe because the bloated surplus of pilots creates real competition for these poverty-wage jobs? (If I'm an employer why should I pay one penny more if I don't need to?). Maybe because even a low paying job is deemed superior to paying for flight time out of your own pocket? This ringing any bells, Goethe? Wait... you're independently rich aren't you, Goethe? You can hold out indefinitely waiting for FedEx to come calling, right?

If pilots were a scarce commodity companies would be forced to compete for their services. New, low-compensation companies wouldn't be able to start operations and flood the market with seats driving down the cost of airline tickets because they couldn't find enough affordable labor to man the operation! If employers were stupid enough to offer ridiculously low wages without any chance of significantly improving the pay in a short or strictly defined period of time no **intelligent** and **high-functioning** individual would go into the profession (...our problem today in the civilian ranks, anyway).

Oh, wait! What about doctors? They don't get paid anything while in their residencies (a defined period of apprenticeship)! Therefore I don't have a point right?

Read this (if you can even possibly comprehend it):

http://www.newyorker.com/printables/fact/050404fa_fact

By the way, it's really hard to get into medical school. Standards being what they are, you know.

Its not the FAAs job to artificially create a shortage, to increase wages. Aviation safety is the main job of FAA, and having them tighten standards for the sole purpose of raising wages is not their job, nor would I want it to be.

Sure, there is a surplus of pilots, but its because pilots are fully willing to accept such low pay. No one is holding a gun to a pilots head and making them do it. I would rather people would just tell an employer to go pound sand or take a hike, rather than just accept poverty wage pay to fly an airplane.

I admit part of it is due to seniority at the airlines, which causes people to have to consider taking the job right now, regardless of pay. I think the best way for the surplus of labor is not for the FAA to get involved in something which is not their responsibility, but for people to not take jobs that pay so little. Pilots should not be encouraging up and coming pilots to just take any job either. I also think its important to have something else you can do, another skill set so you have the ability to turn down a job if the pay is not what you need. Flying is a job, it should not be your identity or what you wrap your life around. There are a hell of a lot more important things in life.

Comparing doctors to pilots is not really a valid comparison. Its take a lot more skill to be a competent doctor or surgeon. And yes, it is hard to get into medical school. Medical schools only have so many available positions in each years admissions to medical schools, but its not because federal government limits it. There is just so much capacity for students at each school, and a lot of applicants for those. Its not artifically hard to get in, they just dont have the ability to let in everyone that applies.

Besides, with enough bananas, you could teach a monkey to fly a plane. Not quite so with a surgeon.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Oh please, like the U.S. is some poor, exploited country. Give it up. The United States is well-known worldwide for being extremely difficult to enter and very protectionist.

I think most Americans living along the Rio Grande would disagree with that. Our southern border is like the screen door on a submarine.

 

[Mkubwa]

414Flyer,

The bottom line is to reduce the number of pilots available for hire. Who is to do this if not the licensing authority? I think I've made my case in my previous post that pilots won't do it. I believe the best way is to weed out those who can't pass both academic and performance competency tests. Mirror the military in the civilian world. Take only the best and most apt and wash the rest out. The result is fewer and more competent pilots - and better opportunities for those who can make it.

How is this to be done? You say there are limited enrollment opportunities in medical schools. Why is this? As it was explained to me by a physician friend of mine, the AMA sets the number of residency (not medical school slots - but they are necessarily linked) slots each year in the US. This effectively limits enrollment in medical programs in the US. Why do you think this is done? Correct - to protect the earning power of physicians. Too many doctors - not enough patients per doctor - not enough pay to make the trouble of becoming an MD worthwhile. When the reward drops below competing career paths qualified people go elsewhere.

Do you know that doctors trained in foreign countries - including first-world, industrialized, Western European countries - cannot come to the US and practice medicine without going through a US medical residency? They have to do their residency all over again - at resident pay - before they can practice here in the US. Tell me this is not protectionism. Tell me doctors aren't protecting their turf. Sort of how the EU deals with US trained pilots, isn't it?

What we as pilots have to fear is cabotage. Let me return to the MD discussion to make an analogy - surgical procedures performed by US licensed surgeons in Thailand and India. American citizens are traveling abroad for surgical procedures performed by MD's trained and certified in the US for thousands of dollars less than the cost of having a procedure done here in the United States. Not everyone can do this but many do - and its popularity is growing.

I agree with you on one point - be able to do something else. However, unless you are coming into the aviation industry after establishing yourself in another career path this is easier said than done.

 

[TinGoose1]

I thought that a requirement to obtain a work visa in the U.S. was a demand for your skill? With thousands of U.S. pilots on the street, I don't think there is a need to bring in foreign labor. I'm not against work visas, only those that take away from Americans that need those same positions. If there was a void to fill by bringing in foreign pilots I'd be all for it......but at this point in time, there isn't.

 

[414Flyer]

I still strenuously oppose, and thankfully it isnt happening, making it artificially hard to be a pilot. I have flown in countries where becoming a pilot is just for the elite and a select few, and well its terribly. Those countries have basically no general aviation system, few airports, you cant fly for leisure and fun, and the pilots are basically walking clusterfukks who are lucky to be able to fly and talk at the same time, since aviation is so tightly controlled by the government. Would you actually trust the FAA to make economic decisions on your behalf?

One thing that makes our country so great, is the freedoms have here, where a common person can apply themselves and make their own destiny, and its up to them, not the government. I want aviation to be strong, vibrant and healthy, with anyone who can pass a course of training and a checkride and can earn the certificates.

Should the federal government keep an eye on each labor field and actively step in each time there is more labor than jobs? Would you actually think that loss of freedom is good for the country?

If you like AMA limiting medical school opportunities, well then tell ALPA to go buy up flight schools and shut them down. AMA isnt a federal government body like the FAA is, but a private organization. I certainly dont want to iron hand of government coming in and limiting opportunties, just to put a few extra bucks in my pocket. I would never be that selfish to want to deny it to others just for my own possible financial gain. This discussion reminds me how how the hollywood types love to go put a huge mansion on a mountain, then demand further development be stopped to save the environment and the mountain (of course only after they have their house on it).

The best way to solve this is to educate people on the realities of aviation as a career, instead of both pilots and flight schools blowing smoke up their A$$es, and people need to willing to do something else besides flying, or hold out for something better, like people in other careers would do. Low wages is a problem pilots, especially aspiring airline pilots, have often brought upon themselves for being such whores. I mean maybe you think you would like a system where being a pilot is just for a select few the government chooses, but it would be at a huge cost. We have the best aviation system in the world, with its diversity of jobs, and the freedom that we have in it. I wouldnt want it changed for anything.

Go spend time in a country where the government keeps a tight clamp on aviation, and tell us how you like it. In a lot of countries with the government limiting aviation, there are things like mandatory calling tower for engine start, mandatory flight plans for any flight, filed hours in advance, mandatory flight on airways, government approval who companies can hire to be a pilot, pilots who have no real experience because its so hard to get in the air, but they know their "theory", etc etc, pilots who use a couple airports in their whole training, etc

I have flown outside the US, and have seen how other countries do it. You dont want go to that route.

 

[sublimaze]

Many flight students face the same problem in Europe. Our training facilities are best in telling everybody since years, that there is/will be a pilot shortage. Students believe that bogus and start their flight training. We have excactly the same problem here. Every year, zig european countries (mainly GB, France, Netherlands, Italy, Spain and Germany) issue hundreds of so called frozen ATPL licences (nothing else as a CPL/IR with a written ATP exam) to people who most probably will never find a flying job. That´s the hard way to learn it. I believe that the main problem for our european "over production" of future line pilots lies in the fact that flight schools tell everybody with their fancy advertisements "yeah, you exactly you can also become an airline pilot...etc....live your dream - fly jets...we need hundreds of more pilots during the next 5 years, the market is booming". They issue this crap since years and still enough people fall for their "scam". After training they learned that they are only a number of hundreds applying for one job.
In such a situation, everybody takes a job everywhere. There is no such thing as proectionism anymore. Fairness dosnt count because everybody wants THE job. And lets be honest, who wouldnt take a nice job offer on a shiny aluminum tube in a foreign country if that gets your foot finally in ?

A recent example from my neighbour country Germany: A very well known charter operator who has a fleet of 737 NGs was looking for pilots recently. In Germany there are many poor souls who thought that they can enlighten their job chances with buying a 737 NG rating (be prepared to pay 3 times as much you would do in the US). They did the rating and also offered themselves to fly for free right seat on 737 with another charter operator (who was known for such practices because it was a supply of free workpower). This ops went belly up and now the souls eagerly wait for the first job. Interesting now, that the first mentioned charter company took a bunch of foreign pilots (Switzerland, Netherlands) on board, leaving the german collegas behind. Apparently, they didnt find enough qualified pilots (with around 700 new ATPL licenses issued every year alone in Germany).

My first wish would be stopping the excessive flight training advertisement, promising jobs and careers right after training to the unaware customer. Thats not the way it works and well all know that. I understand that this is the business flight schools live from but the future student has a right to learn the facts and not just might happen if...

Our business is international so one would expect a certain open mindset from pilots. But i also strongly believe that a company always should choose qualified nationals when supply exists.

Regarding the JAR - it will soon be over and the first harmonization paper with the FAA has been available as draft already. It does look very good for rated and experienced pilots with minimum 500 hrs on type. The new EASA license should become effective around 2007.

One is right in mentioning politics regarding the JAR-FCL. But not in preventing foreign pilots from entering Europe and Switzerland, more in preventing flight students from entering the US and recieve training. They wanted to put an end on people coming to US for FAA license and then converting in Europe thus, saving a lot of money.

But when the JAR is history, the FAA will have a good laugh because Europe will need to adapt to FAA and not vice versa. Another point in Europe is, that with many aviation authorities, the national flag carrier still has a lot of power regarding authorities. Just watch some national carriers and smile as all of them believe that they invented aviation. As long as all of them can put up with their own little thingie, it will be an endless story.

Sorry guys, that was a long story but maybe it helped out in understanding our situation here a bit.

Cheers, sub

 

[CRJDog]

“If you want a European job, get a work permit, like I did in the USA. I don't feel like I am taking anyone's job. I earned it, worked hard for it and I pay tax here.”



The only difference is the difficulty in getting a work visa in Europe?



Look at the problems FedEx had trying to get a permit to operate in France? They wanted the amount in Tax equal to the salary of the worker.



And, the Tax and work rules are not near as relaxed as they are for foreigners working in the US.



You worked for it, I am sure you did, but are you going to make your home here, or just get what you need and carpet bag back to Europe?



Not to flame on you, or pick a fight, just pointing out that many here (in the US) are tired of being exploited.



Mark

WHAT HE SAID!!

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Looking at your profile tells me you must be a real mature “gear biatch” .. time to go back to high school CRJdog.

Mark,

You really don’t have a clue what you’re talking about do you? A good buddy of mine (100% white yank) got hired with KLM 3 years ago to flight instruct at their academy (ab-intio program) for 6 years.. Pay is 50k (Euro) a year by the way. But anyway, after 6 years they will put him as a direct entry f/o on the wide body fleet (A330/B777/B747/MD11)..

Get this, KLM is the sponsor for his WORKPERMIT in Europe.

American 121 airlines will not hire your with a work permit.

MESA, American Eagle and Commutair turned me down because I’m here on a workpermit. Although technically they should give me a fair chance (equal opportunity employer”) they didn’t.

He is stealing A DUTCH JOB **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**-IT.  just kidding. I don’t care. We have many ausies, Americans and Canadians working over there. Being a pilot is a international thing. Better believe it. Do you have any idea how many Americans are flying overseas at Emirates, Cathay Pacific, KLM, Lufthansa, Britsh Airways, Easyjet etc etc etc? trust me, you don’t want them to come back home to compete for the same jobs you are fighting for. They bring back much more experience (and likely better personalities as yours).

Getting a workpermit in the States takes about 1 year (if you are from western Europe.. Add 2 years to that if you are from the east)

Greendcard : 4- 8 years

Citizen : 8 – 12 years.

FD

 

[CRJDog]

Looking at your profile tells me you must be a real mature “gear biatch” .. time to go back to high school CRJdog.


MESA, American Eagle and Commutair turned me down because I’m here on a workpermit. Although technically they should give me a fair chance (equal opportunity employer”) they didn’t.


FD

They "technically" don't have to do anything for you since you are an ALIEN you idiot.

 

[philo]

I guess every country has their rules. I am English with an FAA ATPL. Not too long to go to 60. I have a job with a validated licence, this will end soon at 60. Most of the work that would be possible for me is US based. I am not considered. I guess the same goes for my "brothers in arms" who wish to work in places other than their home country. I don't think bitching and moaning about it will change much. I just hope that SOMEONE WILL GIVE ME A JOB. Best of luck to you all.