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First Officers - minimum 1,000 hours tt

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RideTheWind

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 16, 2003
Posts
400
Just saw this posted on a job site if anyone is interested.


Job Title: First Officers
Region: Republic of Ireland
Company: ExxAvia
Salary: Competitive rates of pay and allowances
Position type: Permanent
Posted: Wednesday 9 February 2005
Job type(s): Flight crew
Description: Flight Crew
New International Airline based in Dublin requires experienced and enthusiastic flight crew for its A320 operation
We are looking to recruit for First Officers - minimum 1,000 hours tt
Good conditions of service and competitive rates of pay and allowances with preference given to type rated pilots.
To apply to be part of this new and exciting team send for an application form to the email id or by post to Doug Gibson, at the postal address given below.
Contact Doug Gibson
Address International House, Corballis Park
Dublin International Airport, Dublin
 
Too bad not that many people have the ratings for this job. The FAA ATP does not go to far in helping ya get this job.
 
skid said:
Too bad not that many people have the ratings for this job. The FAA ATP does not go to far in helping ya get this job.

To say the least. The JAA ATPL is about 20 times as hard to get as the FAA one :)
 
I've wondered why the JAA ATPL is so hard to get? We do the same thing(fly airplanes) right?

Or, is it hard to get because they(Euro's) don't want Americans taking their precious jobs, like they do to us?
 
From what I hear, the flying portions of the JAA exams are actually easier, and it's simply the absurd writtens that are the barrier. Well, that and the fact that the amount of European multi-flying to prepare and pass a checkride will cost several times what it costs in the U.S.. But I believe that you have to pass 14 consecutive written exams or something ridiculous. There are not even any question bank books available, I believe. I am certain it is all about protectionism, to block out the U.S. pilot pool. Outside Europe there is no discrimination in favor of European certificates.
 
Tha Jaa Licenses are hard for anyone: Europeans, Americans, Peruvians, etc...
The Jaa doesn't have a specific exam for a specific type of citizen.
If you want a European job, get a work permit, like I did in the USA. I don't feel like I am taking anyone's job. I earned it, worked hard for it and I pay tax here.
 
Point taken. I'm a dual citizen, part European myself and could work there at will if I passed the exams, but taking a few months off and spending $35,000 is not worth it to just end up being another whining griper on PPRUNE. All I'm saying is that the conversion process acts as a very effective barrier to entry for US certificate holders.
 
“If you want a European job, get a work permit, like I did in the USA. I don't feel like I am taking anyone's job. I earned it, worked hard for it and I pay tax here.”



The only difference is the difficulty in getting a work visa in Europe?



Look at the problems FedEx had trying to get a permit to operate in France? They wanted the amount in Tax equal to the salary of the worker.



And, the Tax and work rules are not near as relaxed as they are for foreigners working in the US.



You worked for it, I am sure you did, but are you going to make your home here, or just get what you need and carpet bag back to Europe?



Not to flame on you, or pick a fight, just pointing out that many here (in the US) are tired of being exploited.



Mark
 
vetteracer said:
“If you want a European job, get a work permit, like I did in the USA. I don't feel like I am taking anyone's job. I earned it, worked hard for it and I pay tax here.”



The only difference is the difficulty in getting a work visa in Europe?


Except for Switzerland, getting a work permit in Europe is signficantly easier than getting one in the U.S.



Look at the problems FedEx had trying to get a permit to operate in France? They wanted the amount in Tax equal to the salary of the worker.

The U.S. has signficant barriers to foreign carriers operating in the U.S. as well....look at Virgin America.



And, the Tax and work rules are not near as relaxed as they are for foreigners working in the US.

Complete nonsense. European countries places the same tax treatment and work rules on all people that have the right to work there, regardless of citizenship....same in the U.S.



You worked for it, I am sure you did, but are you going to make your home here, or just get what you need and carpet bag back to Europe?
Not to flame on you, or pick a fight, just pointing out that many here (in the US) are tired of being exploited.

Mark

Oh please, like the U.S. is some poor, exploited country. Give it up. The United States is well-known worldwide for being extremely difficult to enter and very protectionist.
 
>>The only difference is the difficulty in getting a work visa in Europe?<<


I can tell you have never had to deal with the US immigration. it not as easy as it seems to get a green card in the US,
NO airline will hire you with a temporary work visa only, you have to have a green card.

if you want to work in Europe, you need a license and a work permit, if you want to work in the US you need a license and a work permit (green card)

same goes both ways.
 
skyaddict said:
From what I hear, the flying portions of the JAA exams are actually easier, and it's simply the absurd writtens that are the barrier. Well, that and the fact that the amount of European multi-flying to prepare and pass a checkride will cost several times what it costs in the U.S.. But I believe that you have to pass 14 consecutive written exams or something ridiculous. There are not even any question bank books available, I believe. I am certain it is all about protectionism, to block out the U.S. pilot pool. Outside Europe there is no discrimination in favor of European certificates.

The system here in the USA recognizes that practical experience, ie: a ton of hours, makes for a solid experienced aviator. The Civil Aviation Authorities across the pond put a lot of emphasis on the theory aspect of aviation. Its the reason you have 300 hr pilots starting as flight crewmembers on heavy jet aircraft.
 
saviboy said:
Tha Jaa Licenses are hard for anyone: Europeans, Americans, Peruvians, etc...
The Jaa doesn't have a specific exam for a specific type of citizen.
If you want a European job, get a work permit, like I did in the USA. I don't feel like I am taking anyone's job. I earned it, worked hard for it and I pay tax here.

And how much did it cost you to convert to FAA certificates? Additionally, what, if any, additional written and/or practical exams did you have to take to convert your certificates here in the US? Just curious.



..
 
It's NOT easy to get a work permit in the states. Believe me. It's not fun dealing with immigrations at all. I'm european and my wife is American. It was very easy for her to get her permanent visa and work permit in Europe. I'm not looking forward to the day we're moving to the states.

I've got both JAA and FAA licenses, I did both without any conversion. The FAA written is extremely easy, just study the question bank and you'll be fine. I can't understand how anyone can fail the FAA written. The JAA ATPL written on the other is too hard. There is alot of irrelevant stuff you have to learn, for example you have to know what an "or" gate symbol in an electrical diagram looks like. The problem with the JAA is that there are 30+ countries who all wants to add there own little things and in the end it's just too much.
When it comes to the check ride its the opposite. I had to take two JAA checkrides, first a CPL/ME/IR, then a single engine add on. For the first checkride I had a 30 minutes oral together with another student, of which the examiner was on his cellphone at least 15 minutes. The flight itself was pretty similar to the FAA one.
The good thing about JAA is that it prepares you alot more for the airlines. It makes it alot easier to start flying heavy jets with low hours. Alot of airlines, including majors, hire (or used to hire before 9/11) 200 hour guys into heavies. I have a friend who got recruited to fly the Airbus 340 with 190 hours, I started flying 737NG with 230 hours.

If depends on what kind of license you have when you convert to a US one. If you have CPL/ME/IR, you would get a FAA PPL/ME. You would have to take the CPL/ATP and IR written and checkrides. If you have a JAA ATPL you need to take the FAA ATPL written and checkride.

I think europe is trying to ease the regulations on converting licenses. It also differs from one JAA state to another. Even though it's supposed to be the same regulations all over europe, national aviation authorities interprets it differently. It's not as "joint" as one might think.
 
vetteracer said:


You worked for it, I am sure you did, but are you going to make your home here, or just get what you need and carpet bag back to Europe?



Not to flame on you, or pick a fight, just pointing out that many here (in the US) are tired of being exploited.



Mark

I came to the USA because I was curious and I wanted to discover a new country and a new culture. Also the fact that I had won a green card through the INS lottery program helped in taking the decision to come here. For the moment I plan to make my home here but if/when I am going to be tired of living here I ll go somewhere else. I dont see what is so odd about it. What is weird in living in a place you like? what is so special about leaving a place you dont like anymore?
 
vetteracer said:
Not to flame on you, or pick a fight, just pointing out that many here (in the US) are tired of being exploited.



Mark

Give me a break dude. Amazing how so many of us want to have our cake and eat it. Do you have any clue how many American guys work overseas? We have zero right to bellyache about being exploited.
 
What about with this "harmonization" that took place between JAA and FAA??? It should be easier right?
 
SWA GUY said:
I've wondered why the JAA ATPL is so hard to get? We do the same thing(fly airplanes) right?

Or, is it hard to get because they(Euro's) don't want Americans taking their precious jobs, like they do to us?

Others may hem/haw, but I believe you've hit the nail on the head!
 
You guys have no idea what you are talking about. Have any of you guys actually flown in Europe? Do you have any idea how many Americans work over seas? Do you know what it takes to get a Green Card?

There are basically three ways to get a green card:

1-Get married to a US citizen (two to three year process before you get the actual green card. You have to stay married for at least two years after you get your actual green card. If you get divorced before than you will loose your green card).
2-Get sponsored by an employer(Impossible if you are a pilot because you have to prove and convince the INS that you have a skill nobody else has).
3-Win the green card lottery........good luck......

It is actually a little bit easier and faster to get a European work permit.
 
Fact: There are WAY too many pilots looking for work in the US.

Fact: Remove all foreign pilots from the pool and there are WAY too many pilots looking for work in the US.

Fact: Too much of any resource drives it's cost down.

Fact: Scarce resources require more money to obtain.

Fact: "Career-quality" pilot jobs are few and far between here in the US.

Fact: The barriers to entry into the airline industry for start-up carriers is very low (Airbus practically gave the A-320's to jetBlue). The "barriers to exit" from the airline industry are very high (read anything on GECAS lately?).

Fact: It is very easy to find pilots willing to work for start-up airlines.

Fact: It is very easy to find pilots willing to work for wages and benefits (if any) that are unacceptably low over the long-haul.

Fact: Too much competition makes profits hard to come by unless the costs of production are very low. (Yes, SWA pilots make a nice living but there's more to the equation than just labor).

Fact: Unions (in any industry) are necessary to extract pay and benefits from employers who otherwise would take advantage of the abundant supply of labor. This is accomplished by effectively "shrinking" the supply of labor into a unified bloc. The bloc wields influence because it negotiates as a single entity and can ultimately withhold services to an extent that the company could not function without its cooperation. (No flames necessary - I am a unionist).

QUESTION: Are there significant numbers of American citizens (US citizenship ONLY) working for EU national carriers, e.g. British Airways, Lufthansa, Air France, KLM, Alitalia, Swiss? My guess is there are very, very few (unless they've got dual citizenship some how).

Here's an idea:

Overhaul the US pilot licensing standards. Increase the difficulty of obtaining all classes of license to mirror or exceed (really, to improve on) the standards set by the EU countries for licensure.

Why?

Two equally important reasons. First, reduce the number of pilots in the labor pool thus making pilots a scarcer commodity. This will translate into higher salaries, better working conditions, and realistic career opportunities over time - for those who can cut the mustard.

And, first again, rigor is good. A higher bar will weed out those who can't demonstrate an academic or performance aptitude and will eliminate those who cannot hack the workload or want only to put forth enough effort to be an airborne taxi driver (look, cells in a petri dish can control an airplane in flight http://www.napa.ufl.edu/2004news/braindish.htm [what does this do to the perception of the profession?]. I'd rather know the guy sitting next to me has demonstrated the ability to function at a high level and whose capacities stretch beyond being able to physically fly the airplane).

Oh, one more thing - any change to the licensing standards that would potentially reduce the size of the labor pool would necessarily require governmental restrictions on the hire of foreign citizens as pilots. I would propose that no foreign citizen be allowed to work as a commercial pilot in the United States unless he has been naturalized and has lived in the US for an uninterrupted period of 15 years. YES - I'm all for protectionist policies. If we open the door to the world labor market we do nothing to help ourselves. Big business has brainwashed the simpleminded that protectionist policies are "anti-American". Bull$hit! If anything it's resoundingly pro-American.

Of course, a huge obstacle would be the cost. The idea would NOT be to make becoming a pilot available only to the rich. The idea would be to make becoming a pilot available to THE BEST.

Remember, it's only an idea. I'd like to see some constructive discussion on this rather than just flames.

I believe the profession would benefit from raising the bar.
 
Totally agree.

It is so easy to get all your licenses here in the US that it doesnt weed out the lazy unprofessionals. Every one and their grandma can pass the tests in obtaining their licenses/ Make it harder and comparable to the JAA that it reduces the supply of pilots and thus we become more of a scarcity.

Additionally, I dont think we should be so ignorant to think that only americans should be entitled to work here. Remember, the orginal people of america (native americans) dont have the same rights as the people that displaced them and thus we shouldnt be so naive to think that only "we" should be given the privilige to make an income.
 

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