Filing /U when we are /G

[WMUchickenhawk]

I have a XC coming up with a student where we need to rollow Victor Airways. Im worried that if we file /G ATC will route us direct, maiing the lesson void. Is it legal to file /U as we do have the required equipment for that suffix? Would it be better to file /G anyways in case we eventually need the capability? It looks like the flight will take place in actual.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

File /G then just tell the controllers that you need to remain on the airway for training. Also put in the remarks section of the flight plan IFR training flight.
Heck once in a while we even decline a direct routing at the airlines... not a big deal.

 

[WMUchickenhawk]

OK, thanks

 

[midlifeflyer]

Yeah. it's not a big deal either way. A problem can come up if you file an equipment suffix for equipment you =don't= have rather than file based on equipment you have but don't want to use.

btw, not filing /G guarantees nothing. I did the required IFR dual cross country with a student a few weeks ago and got "direct" to an airport (not a navaid) three times despite having filed /U.

Sometimes I think ATC expects us to have at least a handheld GPS on board and to use it to make their lives easier, despite the regulatory issues (how much situation awareness becomes primary navigation may be the latest version of angels dancing on a pin).

 

[avbug]

Don't forget folks, as of July 1st, suffixes went to ICAO. Some of the suffixes are different, and you file multiple equipment suffixes, now. /G and /U don't mean the same thing as they did. G/ indicates GNSS, and /U means UHF capability.

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/FSS/AppendixA.htm

ITEM 10: EQUIPMENT ​

Radio communication, navigation and approach aid equipment ​

INSERT one letter as follows:
N if no COM/NAV/approach aid equipment for the route to be flown is carried, or the equipment
is unserviceable,
OR
S if standard COM/NAV/ approach aid equipment for the route to be flown is carried and serviceable
(see Note 1)
AND/OR
INSERT one or more of the following letters to indicate the COM/NAV/approach aid equipment available
and serviceable:
A--Not Allocated
B--Not Allocated
C--LoRaN
D--DME
E--Not Allocated
F--ADF
G--GNSS
H--HF RTF
I--Inertial Navigation
J--Data Link (see note 3)
K--MLS
L--ILS
M--Omega
O--VOR
P--Not Allocated
Q--Not Allocated
R--RNP Certification (see note 5)
T--TACAN
U--UHF RTF
V--VHF RTF
W--When Prescribed by ATS
X--When Prescribed by ATS
Y--When Prescribed by ATS
Z--Other Equipment Carried (see note 2)

Other equipment carried
(See Note 2). ​

Note 1.- Standard equipment is considered to be VHF RTF, ADF, VOR and ILS, unless another combination is prescribed by the appropriate ATS authority. ​

Note 2.- If the letter Z is used, specify in Item 18 the other equipment carried, preceded by COM/ and/or NAV/, as appropriate. ​

Note 3.- If the letter J is used, specify in Item 18 the equipment carried, preceded by DAT/ followed by one or more letters, as appropriate. ​

Note 4.- Information on navigation capability is provided to ATC for clearance and routing purposes. ​

Note 5.- Inclusion of letter R indicates that an aircraft meets the RNP type prescribed for the route segment(s) and/or route(s) concerned. ​

For Surveillance equipment (transponder), a separate entry box is used, with separate suffixes:

Surveillance equipment ​

INSERT one or two of the following letters to describe the serviceable surveillance equipment carried:
SSR equipment:

A--Transponder - Mode A (4 digits - 4,096 codes) ​

C--Transponder - Mode A (4 digits - 4,096 codes) and Mode
​

X--Transponder - Mode S without both aircraft identification and pressure-altitude transmission ​

P--Transponder - Mode S, including pressure-altitude transmission, but no aircraft identification transmission ​

I--Transponder - Mode S, including aircraft identification transmission, but no pressure-altitude transmission ​

S--Transponder - Mode S, including both pressure-altitude and aircraft identification transmission.

​

ADS equipment:

D--ADS capability ​

That said, the current online AIM still lists the former equipment suffixes for domestic ( the preferred flight plan domestic or international is the international flight plan, as this is what we're transitioning to), but presently one can file the traditional domestic flight plan format, or the new ICAO form. The AIM does still list X, T, and U as surveillance codes (transponder).

For entirely domestic flight plans using no RNAV routing, then the traditional domestic form will be accepted for now. Any domestic flights desiring RNAV routes, any domestic flight plans that include oceanic routing or airspace, or any flights that go international, must use the ICAO format. Eventually all flights will be on the ICAO format.

 

[AC560]

Any domestic flights desiring RNAV routes, any domestic flight plans that include oceanic routing or airspace, or any flights that go international, must use the ICAO format. Eventually all flights will be on the ICAO format.

Not required for domestic operations other then assignment of RNAV SID/STAR according to latest guidance I have seen.

Letter to Airmen 08-01

 

[avbug]

Interestingly, both the letter you link, and conflicting guidance appear on the following FAA URL:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...ute/flight_plan_filing/filing/pilot_guidance/

Specifically, the link you provided to FAA HQ Letter to Airmen 08-01, the FAA stipulates that no change from current practices applies for point to point RNAV routing. However, in other locations, and on the URL above, the FAA repeatedly states that point to point RNAV routing will require the ICAO flight plan (and suffixes) for point to point RNAV.

A pilot needs the following information available to file a Domestic Flight with a Flight Plan Filer.
Information Needed for Basic Domestic Flights (No RNAV Desired) Information needed when filing FAA Form 7233-1, Flight Plan, with no RNAV is described in the Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM), Section1, Paragraph 5-1-8. The needed information includes such items as aircraft identification, special equipment, departure/arrival points, cruising altitude and route of flight.
NOTE: Please consult ICAO Document 8643 http://www.icao.int/anb/ais/8643/index.cfm before providing your approved 2 - 4 character aircraft type to avoid rejection of your flight plan.


Information Needed for Domestic Flights Desiring RNAV Routes Additional information needed when filing FAA Form 7233-4, International Flight Plan, with an RNAV Standard Instrument Departure (SID), RNAV Standard Terminal Arrival Route (STAR) and/or RNAV Point-to-Point (PTP) route is outlined below and described in FAAO 7110.10, Flight Services, Appendix A, ICAO Flight Plans.

• For a Domestic Flight with No RNAV Desired fill out FAA Form 7233-1.
  • Instructions for filling out the form can be found in the AIM, Section1, Paragraph 5-1-8.

• For a Domestic Flight Desiring RNAV Routes fill out FAA Form 7233-4.
  • Instructions for filling out the form can be found in FAAO 7110.10, Flight Services, Appendix A, ICAO Flight Plans.

June 29, 2008 – All 20 U.S. domestic Air Route Traffic Control Centers (ARTCC) will require International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) Filed Flight Plan (FPL) for automatic assignment of Area Navigation (RNAV) preferential routes. Filers of Domestic Flight Plan (FP) will be eligible for assignment of conventional procedures, only.

I suspect that as these changes are implemented, do to the broad changes taking place in publications and systems, conflicts will continue to appear. The guidance found in multiple places on the FAA site states that where conflicts appear between FAA documentation or procedures and ICAO, ICAO takes precedence.

The following link includes updated information regarding the changes:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org..._plan_filing/filing/flight_plan_instructions/

CHANGE TO CURRENT GUIDANCE!​

Use of FAA Form 7233-4 will be required if assignment of any of the following Area Navigation (RNAV) routes is desired:

• RNAV Standard Instrument Departure (SID);
• RNAV Standard Terminal Arrival Route (STAR); and/or
• RNAV Point-to-Point (PTP).

FAA form 7233-4 is the standard ICAO format flight plan.

 

[AC560]

Interestingly, both the letter you link, and conflicting guidance appear on the following FAA URL

People have commented on other threads/forums that there has been no ICAO requirement for flight plans for point to point or in Class A (which has appeared as a requirement in places as well). So near as I can tell the letter is the most up to date and accurate piece of information.