This is 6 hull losses within 7 years for FedEx. NOT A VERY STELLAR SAFETY RECORD. In fact arguably the worst in the industry. All FedEx employees (Management, Pilots, Maintenance,and so on) are going to need to evaluate current operations. We will now be in the FAA "crosshairs". Does FedEx take too many risks? Flying in non-tower operations in marginal visibility condition (ie at dawn). Flying large aircraft into Subic Bay? Flying an MD-11 (aircrat with the fastest approach and landing speed) into a field with no precision approach, 9000 feet of runway, excessive terrain, terrible ATC, and horrific weather at times. I know this accident has nothing to do with any of this, but previous incidents these factors definitely came into play. As a FedEx pilot we need to continue operating with the utmost degree of professionalism. If I was a betting man, I would expect more FAA examiners aboard FedEx planes over the next months.
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FedEx repercussions
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Ligeirinho
Missing the good'old time
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2002
- Posts
- 76
As an EX 121 suplemental pilot I can tell you right now the problem is FAA.
FAA created this ridiculous 121 suplemental to allow FEDEX and UPS be very profitable and just forgot that pilots are human beings. ICAO rules don't allowed any pilot to fly to consecutives nights by the other hand FAR121 suplemental not only allow it as also allow the rest to be breaked in to turns of 4 hours and 7 days on to get only 24 hours off not even a day. Yes 24 hours technically can mean a day but it's not for you body. The human body recognizes a day as a period where you rested one whole night and worked during daylight.
As a pilot with 3850 hours in MD11 flying in Brazil and landing in runways of sometimes 8000ft with only NDB approaches and not grooved I can tell you right now MD11 handles that pretty well besides the very high approach speeds she also has very nice 50 degrees flaps plus good breaking very stable on any cross wind almost don't crab and if you don't use engine 2 reverse on wet short runways you'll be fine. If you use engine 2 reverse your nose gear will take a long time to come to ground and can compromise your stop distance. And I mention ICAO because besides the name in Europe is JAA and Canada is CAA they are basically ICAO with some minor diferences and FAA/FAR are far away from ICAO and I can even say safety. But they don't wanna hear anybody.
GOD bless all
FAA created this ridiculous 121 suplemental to allow FEDEX and UPS be very profitable and just forgot that pilots are human beings. ICAO rules don't allowed any pilot to fly to consecutives nights by the other hand FAR121 suplemental not only allow it as also allow the rest to be breaked in to turns of 4 hours and 7 days on to get only 24 hours off not even a day. Yes 24 hours technically can mean a day but it's not for you body. The human body recognizes a day as a period where you rested one whole night and worked during daylight.
As a pilot with 3850 hours in MD11 flying in Brazil and landing in runways of sometimes 8000ft with only NDB approaches and not grooved I can tell you right now MD11 handles that pretty well besides the very high approach speeds she also has very nice 50 degrees flaps plus good breaking very stable on any cross wind almost don't crab and if you don't use engine 2 reverse on wet short runways you'll be fine. If you use engine 2 reverse your nose gear will take a long time to come to ground and can compromise your stop distance. And I mention ICAO because besides the name in Europe is JAA and Canada is CAA they are basically ICAO with some minor diferences and FAA/FAR are far away from ICAO and I can even say safety. But they don't wanna hear anybody.
GOD bless all
PurpleTail
Is that RMB or USD???
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2001
- Posts
- 474
Love my job at FedEx...
I don't know if this latest incident was pilot error, maintenance problem or a cargo problem. Luckily everyone made it out alive but it sure is a sobering wake up call. We have been fortunate not to have loss any lives the last couple of times. Kudos to the flight crews!
I feel very fortunate to have been hired by FedEx and I'm very happy working there. I have several friends hired years before me with other majors that are on the street or at the very bottom of the senority list. I also feel confident that when I retire in 20+ yrs that FedEx will still be a strong company with a solid pension but who knows?.?. The way things are going lately I half to be a little concerned.
I know this will sound funny but I actually like (prefer) flying at night than during the day, at least the way the FedEx schedules are set up. If you fly days you are up early, I mean REALLY early and I'm not a morning person. I can't go to sleep at 10 pm and I hate having to set the alarm. I'd rather fly all night, be extrememly tired and sleep as long as I possibly can.
Bottom line, we (FedEx) fly some really strange hours, to some really strange places under all kinds of circumstances. The senior pilots get the gravy schedules that are cake and all the junior (low time in seat) get the short end of the stick (long ass duty).
The company builds the schedule around what is legal by the reg's and not by what effects the trips have on our body. It's one thing to have a 3 day trip with strange hours but it takes a toll on your brain by day 5.
The FAA will be investigating this one very closely and the insurance company is going to have some serious premium hikes. I think our training department is solid and I don't know what more can be done there. Lately we have been doing A LOT more with less bodies and I think it is time to get some new hires on property. There has been too much Draft and too much Volenteer going on.
Sorry for rambling and talking all over the yard, I feel better now
I don't know if this latest incident was pilot error, maintenance problem or a cargo problem. Luckily everyone made it out alive but it sure is a sobering wake up call. We have been fortunate not to have loss any lives the last couple of times. Kudos to the flight crews!
I feel very fortunate to have been hired by FedEx and I'm very happy working there. I have several friends hired years before me with other majors that are on the street or at the very bottom of the senority list. I also feel confident that when I retire in 20+ yrs that FedEx will still be a strong company with a solid pension but who knows?.?. The way things are going lately I half to be a little concerned.
I know this will sound funny but I actually like (prefer) flying at night than during the day, at least the way the FedEx schedules are set up. If you fly days you are up early, I mean REALLY early and I'm not a morning person. I can't go to sleep at 10 pm and I hate having to set the alarm. I'd rather fly all night, be extrememly tired and sleep as long as I possibly can.
Bottom line, we (FedEx) fly some really strange hours, to some really strange places under all kinds of circumstances. The senior pilots get the gravy schedules that are cake and all the junior (low time in seat) get the short end of the stick (long ass duty).
The company builds the schedule around what is legal by the reg's and not by what effects the trips have on our body. It's one thing to have a 3 day trip with strange hours but it takes a toll on your brain by day 5.
The FAA will be investigating this one very closely and the insurance company is going to have some serious premium hikes. I think our training department is solid and I don't know what more can be done there. Lately we have been doing A LOT more with less bodies and I think it is time to get some new hires on property. There has been too much Draft and too much Volenteer going on.
Sorry for rambling and talking all over the yard, I feel better now
I whole heartedly agree with the draft and VLT. I think pilots see the money signs and don't take heed to what their body/mind is telling them. At FedEx you will never come up against the 100 hr mark (unless on the MD-11 and totally whoring yourself) because of the relatively short legs. But hub-turning eight or nine nights in a row to earn extra money is ludicrus. I am not saying that is the norm at FedEx, but I think it is being done. Something will have to be done to protect ourselves from ourselves in that regard. Before everyone jumps me, I think DRF and VLT is a viable option at FedEx. It is nice having the option to earn a little bit more on occasion. I have flown on DRF and VLT. The problem is it should be in moderation. A funny anecdote regarding on of my sisters. When she was young, five or six, she loved oreo cookies. One day she ate an entire bag in one sitting. Had to go to the hospital and was sick for 2 days.
PurpleTail
Is that RMB or USD???
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2001
- Posts
- 474
Bandit110 is right, you never REALLY know what is in the back. I often go back to inspect the Haz can (explosives, corrosives, flam liquid, flam solid, radio active, infectious substance, dangerous when wet, dry ice, etc, etc) and just shake my head. At least that stuff is declared.
Like I said, I am real curious to the findings of this investigation whether it was a cargo fire or the gear collasped and then the fire started, crew rest, or what?? On the surface it doesn't look like it was a crew issue, first flight of the day from OAK-MEM.
Lets not start speculating though until we have more information and facts.
Happy Holidays
Like I said, I am real curious to the findings of this investigation whether it was a cargo fire or the gear collasped and then the fire started, crew rest, or what?? On the surface it doesn't look like it was a crew issue, first flight of the day from OAK-MEM.
Lets not start speculating though until we have more information and facts.
Happy Holidays
Networ-King
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2003
- Posts
- 625
Mr. Zog,
The best thing that could happen to our system in the US is to convert over to the JAA and CAA rules. It beats the living heck out of our system over here, but unfortunately the FAA is reactive instead of proactive and they are very primitive.
I don't think its your place or my place to tell someone whether they are fit to fly opentime or not. Booze and drugs set aside...... thats why we're professionals right? hhhmmmm most pilots anyways. Eveyones situtaion might be different. I timed out a couple of days ago and have to wait till I drop some time and It'll happen again, but my situation is different then yours.
"Something will have to be done to protect ourselves from ourselves in that regard."
Man this statement is right on the money, but futile......... we'll alway be our own worst enemy.
You also said something about the company building lines without thinking about the human body. HHMMMM anybody else see management material here. Seriously though...... Its not managements fault for building lines that suck the life out of their employees. Perfect example would be jetBlue. Great company, great management, but yet their schedules are done in the most effecient way possible. Unfortunately the most effecient schedules abuse the human body, hence the reason why they want an exemption so they could fly over 8 hours in a 24 hour period. Converting over to the JAA and CAA rules would take care of this, along with many other down falls in the FAR's If they get the exemption, Im willing to bet that management would take the schedules to the extreme, just like they are doing now. Then again I have been wrong once before in my lifetime and thats why Im married. LOL.......
Why don't we all just wait and see what the cause of this accident was and then we can start being ...... ahem.... the experts that we all are.
ps. Man Im glad those guys saved all their bags during that emergency egress. LOL...
The best thing that could happen to our system in the US is to convert over to the JAA and CAA rules. It beats the living heck out of our system over here, but unfortunately the FAA is reactive instead of proactive and they are very primitive.
Mr Zog said:
I don't think its your place or my place to tell someone whether they are fit to fly opentime or not. Booze and drugs set aside...... thats why we're professionals right? hhhmmmm most pilots anyways. Eveyones situtaion might be different. I timed out a couple of days ago and have to wait till I drop some time and It'll happen again, but my situation is different then yours.
"Something will have to be done to protect ourselves from ourselves in that regard."
Man this statement is right on the money, but futile......... we'll alway be our own worst enemy.
You also said something about the company building lines without thinking about the human body. HHMMMM anybody else see management material here. Seriously though...... Its not managements fault for building lines that suck the life out of their employees. Perfect example would be jetBlue. Great company, great management, but yet their schedules are done in the most effecient way possible. Unfortunately the most effecient schedules abuse the human body, hence the reason why they want an exemption so they could fly over 8 hours in a 24 hour period. Converting over to the JAA and CAA rules would take care of this, along with many other down falls in the FAR's If they get the exemption, Im willing to bet that management would take the schedules to the extreme, just like they are doing now. Then again I have been wrong once before in my lifetime and thats why Im married. LOL.......
Why don't we all just wait and see what the cause of this accident was and then we can start being ...... ahem.... the experts that we all are.
ps. Man Im glad those guys saved all their bags during that emergency egress. LOL...
Last edited:
kevdog
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2002
- Posts
- 888
Re: Love my job at FedEx...
Wow, I fly 121 non-sched cargo outfit and only 5 days on would be a vacation. imagine 30 days straight, a couple days back home to relax and clean the pipes, and then another week or two out.
Is FedEx hiring?
PurpleTail said:
The company builds the schedule around what is legal by the reg's and not by what effects the trips have on our body. It's one thing to have a 3 day trip with strange hours but it takes a toll on your brain by day 5.
Wow, I fly 121 non-sched cargo outfit and only 5 days on would be a vacation. imagine 30 days straight, a couple days back home to relax and clean the pipes, and then another week or two out.
Is FedEx hiring?
LOSA?
I was wonderring if any of you fine folk out there might take a minute to explain what "LOSA" stands for? That's a new acronym for me...and... being from a military background... I thought I had about heard all of them.
Obviously I'm mistaken!
Thanks in advance and Happy Holidays from the Middle East.
Kav
I was wonderring if any of you fine folk out there might take a minute to explain what "LOSA" stands for? That's a new acronym for me...and... being from a military background... I thought I had about heard all of them.
Obviously I'm mistaken!
Thanks in advance and Happy Holidays from the Middle East.
Kav
TOGA
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2002
- Posts
- 334
LOSA = Line Operations Safety Audit. Observers ride jumpseats & take notes on just about everything that occurs. All notes are reviewed & compiled into a thorough analysis of what really happens on the line. Typically, this will point out common crew variances from SOP or weaknesses in SOP. Korean Airlines performed a LOSA shortly after their Guam accident. It was truly amazing to read . . . and educational.
TonyC
Frederick's Happy Face
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2002
- Posts
- 3,050
Posted on another thread: Fedex DC-10 Caught fire in MemphisMurdawg5 said:
Windy:
----------------------- OBSERVATIONS -----------------------
KMEM 182053Z COR 29019G26KT 10SM FEW050 SCT250 11/M02 A3011
RMK AO2 PK WND 29026/2045 SLP197 T01101017 53006
KMEM 182053Z 29019G26KT 10SM FEW050 SCT250 16/M02 A3011
RMK AO2 PK WND 29026/2045 SLP197 T01611017 53006
__________________
AlbieF15
F15 Ret/FDX/InterviewPrep
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 1,764
With a whopping 2 years on the property I can't answer all the questions, but here are some attempts at a few...
Hub turning if flying into Mem from an outlaying city, waiting for the sort, then flying back out to the originating city. The "typical" night hub turn has you leaving from the originating city at 2000-2100 local, arriving in Memphis just before midnight, then leaving MEM again around 0300-0400. There are also some "day" hubturns leaving the originating cities around 0600-0800, arriving Mem 0700-1000, and going out 1500-1700 that day.
Nice thing about schedules like that are many have a commercial DH to the originating city on front and back end. This makes for a very commuter friendly company. We also don't (usually) hub turn on weekends, although there are some out Saturday return Sunday day flights. International and SIBA trips may be completely different--I'm speaking mainly of the bulk of the 727/Domestic A300 flying.
Mixed into this are "out and backs"...leaving Mem 0200-0400 and returning 0500-1100 that day. Memphis based folks love these as they spend 4-8 hours away from home but then are back by mid day. We also have day O&Bs which leave around 1500 and RTB 2300-0100....you show up late but you go home at night (if you are MEM based)
Not all flights meet these parameters, but I'd say 65-85% are probably close.
So...week on/week off schedules are possible and as Spur pointed out--we rarely fly weekends and the 1 in 7 rule would keep you from consecutive days hub turning anyway.
Ramifications of latest accident on crew force and hiring? Who knows? I have found almost everyone I've flown with at FDX to be the utmost professional, and the training department folks are dedicated and work hard to keep us sharp. I have no idea why/how these accidents occured, but I'm sure flight safety, mgt, ALPA, our own MEC, and the NTSB will have some findings and recommendations. Until then, I won't speculate and I'll try to stay out of everyone's way.
I have had 3 line checks/observations checks in year, as well as a PC (sim check) and a PT (practice sim). I don't know what if anything the FAA will do but at least as an FE I feel well trained and prepped for my job. I would expect, however, more scrutiny on future flights from FEDS and other outside agencies, but that is 100% pure speculation.
As an MD10/11 wannabe I could insert a crude joke/comment here with the punchline being they need more guys like me in that system, but whenever I've jumpseated the widebody guys have impressed me with their dedication and professionalism. I would love to be in MD10/11 training tomorrow, but this is not the prefered way to move up in seniority. I have no idea what happened, but like every other pilot on the property I'll be waiting for the NTSB final report with great interest.
Hub turning if flying into Mem from an outlaying city, waiting for the sort, then flying back out to the originating city. The "typical" night hub turn has you leaving from the originating city at 2000-2100 local, arriving in Memphis just before midnight, then leaving MEM again around 0300-0400. There are also some "day" hubturns leaving the originating cities around 0600-0800, arriving Mem 0700-1000, and going out 1500-1700 that day.
Nice thing about schedules like that are many have a commercial DH to the originating city on front and back end. This makes for a very commuter friendly company. We also don't (usually) hub turn on weekends, although there are some out Saturday return Sunday day flights. International and SIBA trips may be completely different--I'm speaking mainly of the bulk of the 727/Domestic A300 flying.
Mixed into this are "out and backs"...leaving Mem 0200-0400 and returning 0500-1100 that day. Memphis based folks love these as they spend 4-8 hours away from home but then are back by mid day. We also have day O&Bs which leave around 1500 and RTB 2300-0100....you show up late but you go home at night (if you are MEM based)
Not all flights meet these parameters, but I'd say 65-85% are probably close.
So...week on/week off schedules are possible and as Spur pointed out--we rarely fly weekends and the 1 in 7 rule would keep you from consecutive days hub turning anyway.
Ramifications of latest accident on crew force and hiring? Who knows? I have found almost everyone I've flown with at FDX to be the utmost professional, and the training department folks are dedicated and work hard to keep us sharp. I have no idea why/how these accidents occured, but I'm sure flight safety, mgt, ALPA, our own MEC, and the NTSB will have some findings and recommendations. Until then, I won't speculate and I'll try to stay out of everyone's way.
I have had 3 line checks/observations checks in year, as well as a PC (sim check) and a PT (practice sim). I don't know what if anything the FAA will do but at least as an FE I feel well trained and prepped for my job. I would expect, however, more scrutiny on future flights from FEDS and other outside agencies, but that is 100% pure speculation.
As an MD10/11 wannabe I could insert a crude joke/comment here with the punchline being they need more guys like me in that system, but whenever I've jumpseated the widebody guys have impressed me with their dedication and professionalism. I would love to be in MD10/11 training tomorrow, but this is not the prefered way to move up in seniority. I have no idea what happened, but like every other pilot on the property I'll be waiting for the NTSB final report with great interest.
Vikingpilot
Member
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2001
- Posts
- 24
The originator asked about repercussions. Albie addressed most but I would add another bogey...insurability! The underwriters in London will be watching the outcome/cause of this mishap closely. If aircrew error is tagged insurance may be problematic or cost prohitibitive to continue operations in the present form...let's hope note. I'm susre Mgt is very concerned about this. Secondly will be how much of the freight is salvagable, not sure how full the MD-10 was (but it is peak) but there will be some big payouts for those lost christmas gifts. Keep your eye on this one
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