FBO Route to the Airlines

[Bruin-Flyer]

All

I am sure this has been touched upon before but I had a few questions regarding training at a FBO. As I see it, the huge advantage of going the FBO route is definately the cost, but.........

Would you say on average (imagine the airlines were hiring) it would take someone who trained and then was a CFI at a local flight school that much longer to get to the regionals than someone who went the flight academy route?

Besides lower costs......what are other advantages of training through the local FBO?

Does training at a FBO (instead of the large flight academies) in any way hurt one's chances of getting picked up with a regional when they start hiring?

For you CFIs.....are your FBOs where you work out of pretty flexible with regards to only wanting to part-time instruct?

Thank you much....

 

[labbats]

It's not what you know or where you studied. It's WHO you know that will matter.

 

[Ace757]

Take it this way. I have 2 friends. 1 who went the FBO route 4 years ago, and is still there with 3000 hrs TT an ATP, and took the ride with the Feds to be chief flight instructor. On the other hand.....I have a friend that went to one of the big academies, and with 1100 hrs he is sitting in the right seat of an RJ.

Just an observation.

 

[bobbysamd]

Let's travel the road again . . . .

For discussion's sake, let's assume that FBO training is under Part 61, while academy training is under Part 141.

Advantages of FBO training include training at your own pace and paying as you go. Also, more tailor-made lessons and, perhaps, less pressure for flight tests. Your instructor(s) direct your training, and you take your practical exams when your instructor feels that you're ready.

I'm not sure that in the overall picture that the above are advantages. Sometimes, it's not the best thing to train at your own pace. I can attest to that because I trained at my own pace with Part 61 instructors who owned their own airplanes. I had no choice at the time because of work and flying ambitions, but I am convinced that I would have learned faster and better and in fewer hours and less expensively if I had the organization and discipline of school imposed on me.

The discipline of school notwithstanding, Part 141 schools have their courses approved by the FAA. These courses are organized and are designed to take you through the program step by step. You do have to pass stage checks along the way. I know of students who were paralyzed by fear when they heard the term "stage check." That could because of ill-trained and ill-appointed stage check pilots, or because the students in question were not prepared or refused to prepare for these tests. In reality, a stage check is an important quality-control step that does you, the student, a favor. Passing a stage check is assurance that the student is ready to progress to the next unit of training and that the proper foundation has been laid for that unit of training. Moreover, you will have to have to pass initial rides and annual and semi-annual rides as you climb the career ladder. Better to get used to it sooner rather than later, and acquire the confidence you need to take tests by passing them.

Another point worth mentioning about FBOs is that instructors may instruct secondary to their duties as 135 pilots. That means that your lesson might be bumped in favor of an air taxi or charter flight. At a school, you are assured that instructors are there only to provide flight instruction.

Finally, FBO instructors come and go. Your instructor one day may be gone the next and your next instructor may be an unknown quantity. School instructors come and go, too, but your new instructor is likely to be a better-known quantity. That is because Part 141 instructors must go through standardization and take a checkride in each aircraft they fly. They also have to take annual rides in each aircraft. In addition, 141 schools must maintain minimum pass rates. Instructors whose students are not passing their stage checks and practicals are monitored and dealt with.

One other comment: many schools have internships and/or networking opportunities and programs that, indeed, may be priceless in the long run. But, you have opportunities to meet and network with people through FBO training and after, if you're hired to instruct.

Just more food for thought. I like Ace757's comment, but both ways work. Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[de727ups]

FBO route

I did all my training part 61 and none of it was from an academy except I got my CFII at Riddle. I did fine, as I'm now with UPS. The airlines care about experience, ratings, and hours. Some guys from some academies get involved with direct entry type programs where they can get hired with lower time but it doesn't work for everyone. I majority of pilots I know did not go the academy route and are doing just fine.

 

[Bruin-Flyer]

Thanks for the responses.....very insightful. Now....what about getting on as an instructor after training? I know a lot of academies have flow-through type programs where you automatically instruct with them (i.e., PamAm), but would you all think chances are pretty good of getting hired on at an FBO where you did your ratings?

Another thing....on average, how much multi-time time do you think the typical MEI gets per year? (I know that is difficult to answer.....but take a stab at it from your experiences)

Thanks again

 

[Snakum]

I talked to a retired United Captain once at RDU (B747) who went the FBO route. He started flying recreationally as a kid and was standing around the FBO one day at 23 years old with his newly-minted commercial multi and less than 300 hours. He was approached by a 'recruiter' from United and found himself in class less than two months later.

He would probably say to go the FBO route.

Minh
(BTW ... this happened in the early 1960s)

 

[dondk]

my.02 into this discussion...

I started at one of those academy's, left 1/2 way through and finished part 61. I got my first regional job with 1000/150.

For some the academy's it can be a win-win situation. Some academy's were doing the internship thing, personally I thought it was a lousy deal. Others are doing the direct entry and still others are doing the "work as a CFI then enter".

Best way to look at this..
Internship.. you are going to do some "time" before a class date. The time is unknown

Direct entry... you are sharp enough and the regional is hiring and all goes well, you have a job at a fraction of the time it takes everyone else. The downside it is the more expensive route

Academy CFI... You are building time, getting paid, and when you hit that magic number you move into a pool to be hired. Time wise this is the second longest route (generally)

Part 61... time is your choice, you can go as fast or slow as you want. I for instance beat all of my academy classmates to reach CPL, then CFI. I was working before them and was hired before they were. Then again I pushed to do it as quick and I did save money.

MEI--- a long time ago, another MEI told me the certificate never pays for itself. I would have to agree. In my year as a MEI I did about 75 hours. The other 75 I did myself by buying 50hrs of block time. In the end I made sure to get time in several different light training twins so I could legally teach in them.

In my area, the average MEI did about 50hrs a year and that was pounding the pavement, many will not let you in a twin until you have 500-750TT for insurance purposes.

Some FBO's hire from those they train, even if they do not, you are not tied to one FBO and you can freelance and make best use of your time.

Both ways work, cannot say which may be best for you, only you will know that...

 

[Bruin-Flyer]

The way that I see it is this......it is simply a matter of timing. In the late 90s, dudes were being picked up with time as low as 300-50. Now, if you were to just begin your training in 2001-2002 timeframe, then you may have roughly 2000-200 (very rough estimate) by now and still plugging away at either the local FBO or flight academy. Therefore, it leads me to believe that besides the "who you know factor", timing is everything.

Do you think that late 90s time will ever return? If so, when?

 

[bobbysamd]

I talked to a retired United Captain once at RDU (B747) who went the FBO route. He started flying recreationally as a kid and was standing around the FBO one day at 23 years old with his newly-minted commercial multi and less than 300 hours. He was approached by a 'recruiter' from United and found himself in class less than two months later.

He would probably say to go the FBO route.
(BTW ... this happened in the early 1960s)

Could he have been Rick Dubinski?

That might have been the only time in HISTORY, Kit, that there was a pilot shortage. I read that in the early sixties such places as United hired pilots who only had Privates!

 

[bobbysamd]

Pilot hiring cycles

The way that I see it is this......it is simply a matter of timing. In the late 90s, dudes were being picked up with time as low as 300-50 . . . .
Do you think that late 90s time will ever return? If so, when?

If history is any indication, an "up" cycle might be forthcoming in two or three more years. There was a bull pilot market from 1986-'91, which was my era. Then, from about 1991 to '95, times sucked. From 1995 to 2001, hiring times were unbelievable, to me, anyway. I say that because regional mins dropped extremely low, compared to what I was used to.

The next hiring boom might be much different than previous booms. Don't forget, the airlines have to first bring back their furloughees. That may take a few years, simply because airlines have scaled back and will be bottlenecked with recallees. That means that regional hiring will be slow. Or else, the majors may use regionals more and more as their vendors for short and medium-range routes. The landscape may well be completely different than it was in the '80s and '90s.

Let's just hope there are plenty of jobs for pilots in the years to come.

 

[dondk]

It's funny.. I remember in the early 80's an ad for Pan Am recruiting pilots with 300 TT and a commercial ticket. This was a 1/4 page ad in Newsday (NY)...

I second bobbysamd as the trend will be coming back in the next 18 months or so.. I do think the lows of 500TT is a thing of the past. Who knows in this industry?

 

[captainv]

Go with your gut and i don't think you can go wrong. you've got to do what's right for you.

As for me, I tried to do the academy route, but i just didn't have the money. I've financed all of my flying myself, so i've always had to be working while getting my ratings. I just couldn't swing going to one of the academies full-time.

I went to a Part 61 FBO and got all my ratings there. I never had more than one instructor at a time, and i was pleased with the training I received. That said though, certainly the training at an academy would be much better - you do get what you pay for.

The secret to my success was simply right place/right time. I got into jets very early, but the downside was i wasn't logging a lot of time. I saw many corporate pilots with lots of experience getting snapped up by the regionals, then going to the majors within a few years. I thought i was missing my shot because I didn't have the minimums for the regionals.

Now I've been at Comair almost a year, and all the corporate pilots who left ahead of me are, to a man, all furloughed. Quite a few have left aviation entirely, a few managed to get their old corporate jobs back, most started over, taking any flying job they could.

By the way, while interviewing at various regionals, they were much more interested in my professional experience than my training background.

 

[Bruin-Flyer]

captainv

Thanks for sharing your experience.....it seems to have worked out pretty good for you so far. If you don't mind me asking, how did you get into a Lear with low time (how much?)

Your situation sounds pretty much like mine (well....the way you started at least)....let me explain.

I originally got my private in 1999 then just flew recreationally since then because I wanted to focus on getting my undergrad degree (read my screenname and you can proabably figure out where I went....) Anyway, the reason I think that your situation is mine is the work thing. I don't have the financial resources to do the academy thing, I just turned 26 and need to work while I get my ratings. I currently have a good job that is very flexible....weekends off, every other Friday off, a lot of leave time, etc., but with not wanting to finance thousands of dollars I think I can do this thing concurrently.

Oh..one more question...since you had to work.....and I am assuming you were a CFI for a while....did you just do it part-time?

Thanks

 

[captainv]

Bruin-Flyer,

I am very much an exception to the rule. To answer your question, I started flying jets with 283 hours TT. Yes, I am one lucky ba$tard.

I got my private in 1996, after being told by an AME in 1992 that I'd never fly professionally. During that exam, I discovered I have defective color vision - I can see about 50-60 % of the numbers in those color plates. The doc never told me about waivers or SODAs or anything else, so I gave it up for a few years, got my degree and had to wait a few years until my interest piqued again and I found out how full of crap he was...

I became a copy editor at the newspaper in Lakeland, FL, my hometown, which of course is home to the Sun 'n Fun Fly-In. Since I was the only one at the paper who knew anything about airplanes, every year I'd cover the Fly-In. About a month after covering my first Fly-In, I started on my private ratings. I worked nights, so I could train during the day, which worked out great. At that time, FlightSafety Lakeland had a training program, so I enrolled in that for my instrument/commercial. Three days after joining, they decided to send all the training airplanes back to Vero, and as I said, I couldn't afford to go full-time. So, i did all my ratings as Piedmont-Hawthorne LAL.

Fast forward to 1999. I get my C-AMEL and I'm studying to be a CFI. A friend of mine happens to hear about a corporate ourfit in ATL looking for a pilot. She mentions me. I get wind of this, turns out they fly a Lear 25 and a Challenger 600 on charter. I tell her she's nuts - there's no way they'd want a guy like me with my total lack of experience, but what the hell, I email them my times.

Turns out they want a young guy to fly a Bonanza or a Baron for them, ferrying parts and mechanics for their bizjet Repair Station.
One of the owners owns businesses in Orlando, so I get to fly up on the Lear and back on the Challenger. On the way home in the Challenger, we're empty and they let me come up front and get some stick time. So the first jet i ever flew was a Challenger 600. I decide i'll take the job no matter what they want me to do.

I start about a month later, and they haven't bought the Baron yet so I work in the office. And although they have 3 captains and 3 co-pilots on staff, they're having a terrible time finding pilots to fly the owners around on Part 91 stuff. the pilots got paid more to do charter stuff, so it's not too much of a surprise. and here I am, a pilot with no airplane and I'm on salary. That's how i got into jets. Ridiculous, right? Total right place/right time, but I wasn't about to complain.

one thing i wish i had done - i should've bought a 152 for my ratings. you can pick one up for $15,000-20,000, so the monthly payments wouldn't be too bad. Sell it when you're done and you'll probably make back your money, if not more....


Captainv