Fatal S-3 Mishap last year

[exagony]

I agree with you the S-3 accident could bring something good out. But only if the military thinks so.

As far as Foxholes and Cockpits, that debate will unfortunatly go on forever. Both have their dangers and both their heros. Just because I see heros in Aviation does not mean I believe there aren't any on the ground, quite the contrary. Aviation and patrol boats is where I have experience so it's where I have seen the sacrifice. Please don't demean my job as I don't demean yours.

I think you open yourself up for beatings with your quotes and sayings, and you thinking no-one else is "worthy" is upsetting. Thinking that guys who "drop bombs" and have a "beer" somehow have it easy is way wrong.

I'm tired of this debate. It's got the smell of 2 guys with too much testosterone. I'm out.


If I ever come across ya I'll buy ya a beer or two - Semper Fi

 

[exagony]

Which part of "The government said the accident analysis report by the Navy said the crew mistook the image of the island on the radar for that of the ship, and then approached it and crashed."
is confusing to you?

Hooked on phonics didn't work for me!

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Which part of "The government said the accident analysis report by the Navy said the crew mistook the image of the island on the radar for that of the ship, and then approached it and crashed."
is confusing to you?

Excuse my ignorance, but does the ship not have navaids? The reason I'm interested is that I had a co-pilot in freight aviaton that was a former Viking pilot and one of the funniest guys I ever flew with (also a very good pilot). When you get paged at 0100 for a 15hr gig it makes a big difference who you get paired up with. He was obviously very partial to the plane and would talk about it at every opportunity. He would put a smile on your face every time. Would the crew not have been briefed on such a huge obstacle in the area?

 

[SIG600]

Without any of the crew to talk to... some of those questions may never be really answered. Again, it may delve into the privledged info column. Yes the ship has NAVAIDS.

 

[millhouse21]

Crews don't get "briefed" in any significant way. This isn't hollywood where some one star briefs the crew before their super top secret mission. The island is on the charts but if they were flying off the boat, they probably didn't have an ONC or TPC handy.

Hearing about this mishap made the hairs stand up on the back of my head since I've spent many hours flying around Iwo Jima including at night. One of the missions of the S-3 includes some time spent at low altitude day or night. Since this island was uninhabited, there were few or no lights on it. That could have been any of us. If you don't think so, you've never been there.

 

[SIG600]

Crews don't get "briefed" in any significant way. This isn't hollywood where some one star briefs the crew before their super top secret mission. The island is on the charts but if they were flying off the boat, they probably didn't have an ONC or TPC handy.

Hearing about this mishap made the hairs stand up on the back of my head since I've spent many hours flying around Iwo Jima including at night. One of the missions of the S-3 includes some time spent at low altitude day or night. Since this island was uninhabited, there were few or no lights on it. That could have been any of us. If you don't think so, you've never been there.

Black ocean, on a moonless night, an island with no population and no lights... anyone that thinks it couldn't have been them is retarded.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Crews don't get "briefed" in any significant way.

Huh?

(and by the way, there but for the grace of LBFMs go I.)

 

[Montage]

S-3 Sir

Well, this has been an interesting exchange! I have been lurking on this site for a while now, but never registered or posted. I guess I felt compelled to finally pipe in on this one, thanks for the kick in the pants!

Not that it's any of my business, or that I have any real insight to add, but since this topic falls under my current line of work I decided to add my .02 cents worth.

I can understand the desire to know what happened in any mishap. As pilots with a healthy sense of self preservation we naturally want to know what mistakes were made so that we can better understand how to keep ourselves safe. Since the military is a publicly funded entity there is also a certain sense of entitlement to full disclosure as a taxpayer. (and it was pretty obvious to me at least that exagony felt this way, as opposed to valuing dollars over human life)

If a tragedy befell anybody we knew personally we would also want a better understanding of the issues to help us with the grieving process.

I have read the S.I.R. on this one, (as I'm sure others here may have as well) and can attest to the basic accuracy of the short summary posted above. There are more detailed causal factors in the report of course, but nothing that would provide any great insight or lasting benefit to aviation as a whole. Typically human errors tend to repeat themselves.

An important point to make is that we don't keep secrets. The causes and recommendations are shared, just not outside the Navy. The Safety Center ultimately determines final distribution of the reports, but in this case the report went out to all of Naval Aviation. It's not a coverup.

The reasons for privilege have been discussed already to some extent, but I wanted to add just a little for the non-ASOs in the crowd...

From the 3750:
"Military and federal courts grant protection under Executive Privilege to information given under promises of confidentially, and to the analysis, conclusions and recommendations of the AMB and endorsers."

And also:
"The Naval Aviation safety program has long benefited from the willingness of our personnel to confide in AMBs and ASOs."

In short, the concept of privileged information exists precisely to PREVENT a coverup by the individuals involved. And it's not just fear of punishment. People are rarely punished for honest mistakes. Rather it is to protect our military members from a litigous society.

If a Safety Investigation Report were made public and widow "A" learns that technicial "B" installed part "C" backwards because the manual was confusing, you can bet that the matter would end up in civil court. How willing would technician "B" be to admit to a mistake with that possibility? All involved would clam up and call their lawyers. Kind of hard to prevent future mishaps by examining the causal factors and implementing corrective action when everyone is taking the 5th.

So, we grant them confidentiality in writing and ask for the truth. We usually get it. To release any privileged information is to betray that confidentiality and put the future success of the Naval Aviation safety program in jeopardy.

I hope that this may help some of you understand the underlying reasons a little better.

 

[rhinodriver]

Huh?

Hard to believe but true. We spend a ton of time briefing the small particulars of a mission but don't necessarily get briefed on the big picture stuff such as a 2500 foot island sticking out of the middle of the ocean in the middle nowhere. Remember that the vast majority of the S-3 mission is spent down low. I can't remember how many times I was with a crew below 1000 feet on a totally moonless night.



When I was in CAG-5 we used to call that island the chocolate drop cause it looked like a Hershey’s kiss. If millhouse21 is who I think he is we spent some time around there in the same cockpit. If you could see this island you would understand how this happened.



I was on the Stennis that night and it was as dark as any other that I can remember. I also remember the terrible news coming that an S-3 hadn't reported back. I was an IP with Z-man. He was probably the best dude in the Navy. I don't think I have ever met a guy who was as upbeat as him. You just couldn't not like him. I also gave Patty his initial qualification check in the S-3. Another great dude. This was an absolute tragedy and every Hoover driver is lucky it wasn't them.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Remember that the vast majority of the S-3 mission is spent down low.

That makes me wonder if the S-3 NATOPS has something akin to the P-3 MOSA (Minimum Operational Safe Altitude). Amazingly, it wasn't until 1983 that the VP community came up with this procedure. If memory serves, it was defined as 1000 feet above the highest obstacle within 30 NM. Anytime we were below that, radar had to be on (or a littany of other nav items had to be complied with).
Anyway, what's amazing to me is that there were quite a few CFIT incidents in the patrol community before they finally came up with this after a crew hit a cliff in Kauai in '83. There hasn't been a VP CFIT case since. If the VS bubbas don't have MOSA procedures now, I'm guessing they will in the near future. When we implemented it, it was via an urgent change.

 

[firstthird]

There have been at least 2 near misses with P-3s and terrain in the last 10 years, even after the mosa procedures. Both were cases of the NAV using the wrong chart (1 to 2,000,000 vs. a 1 to 500,000 or 1 to 1,000,000). The smaller two show ALL terrain whereas the 1 to 2,000,000 scale omits some of the 'smaller' islands. Which aren't so small if you hit them, of course.

If I remember correctly, one of the recent near misses the crew did a run in to mark on top (versus an offset run in that would be preferred, hindsight and all) of a 'ship' at 1000 feet, well, the ship was around 850 feet tall (an island which wasn't on the chart the Nav was using) they figured it out as their radalt went from 1000 feet to 150 feet and back in a few seconds, making low RAWS go off (low raws being the 170 feet and below warning, whereas high raws is 380 feet)

Pilots and radar operators are also repsonsible for the navigation/islands/charts at low alts, but generally it was the NAV that had the chart out the most. Not sure how that would work in an S-3 with less guys and not as much table space.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Sounds like both cases the NAV was in direct violation of NATOPS by not having a 1:1,000,000 chart or better. Violating rules written in blood is never a very good idea.

 

[rhinodriver]

charts

As crazy as it sounds most of the time nobody in the jet had any chart at all. The ship moves around so much that we never had the charts on board. There was usually a large chart of the whole area on the ready room wall but that was more to just see generally where we were. If there was something significant about the airspace it was usually briefed on the CVIC brief by the intel folks. Chances of something like this being briefed... slim to none... Until after it happened anyway.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Any bets that there will be new terrain avoidance procedures for the tacair bubbas?