Fatal S-3 Mishap last year

[chris69]

Everyone please step back, take a breath, relax and reread one's post before they press reply. I have a feeling that if we were all sitting around a bar shooting the bull about aviation we'd be indistiguishable from one another in dress and mannerisms, and have about 99% in common. Scott was a classmate of mine, a great guy, and although I hadn't seen him in years or kept in touch, had a great reputation in both the A-6 and S-3 community. Having been away from the S-3 for over 6 years I don't have the greatest insight into what happened. I'm sure, however, that no big cover up has occured and that non-priveledged information pertaining to specifics can be found within open sources. Fly safe.
CLL

 

[SIG600]

The military is not accountable to the citizens of the US... politicians are. We are held accountable to your elected officials. We don't air our dirty laundry for the world to scrutinize, and we don't need the civilian sector disecting what goes wrong. Most wouldn't be able to understand the dynamics anyway.

And if you find that quote humorous, you've got issues. Most Marines I know would probably knock you out for that.

 

[Bjammin]

Considering that my tax dollars went with the crew I think that .

That's where you said it. And if you think alot of guys go Hot Dogging in military aviation, take another pill. Until these guys are poven to have done something wrong, SHUT IT. And if they did, so what. People make mistakes and sometimes die. Honor them regardless. If there is something to be learned, believe me it will come out. I have been involved in a few investigations myself and have never seen ANYTHING to believe something was covered up. As far as the Tomcat crash, because it was a female makes zero difference. I train many female that are awesome pilots and will humble many a man behind the boat.

Don't ever compare me to you. You have no idea what i've done. I've been shot at, had an SA-6 go by my wingman, I lost 2 students in an S-3B, saved 23 people, and lost a girl in my partol boat. I'm not going into details, you don't deserve it. I did over 11 years active duty and over 6 reserve and I'm still serving, you?

The only one being disrespectful is you. I would NEVER look down upon any honorable serving member in the service in ANY BRANCH! You have talked down to the Navy, to pilots, and to the reserves. Your quote dishonors all Marines. You obviously don't have the maturity to recognize the difference.

You truly believe there are no heros alive? Tell that to the honorable wounded or those that saved lives.

You want to go toe to toe, i've got my sleves up.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

We don't air our dirty laundry for the world to scrutinize, and we don't need the civilian sector disecting what goes wrong.

Dude, do you not watch the news? Dirty laundry is about all you see reported on the military. Privilege (yes, I know it's hard to spell, but not that hard) has nothing to do with keeping secrets from the civilian sector. It's actually more about avoiding disciplinary action for information given in the course of an investigation than anything else. Not all information, just that which is deemed "privileged".
Why? So people will talk to the investigators truthfully without fear of repercussions.
Why? Because the more open witnesses are, the more accurate the info and the more likely true causes of mishaps can be determined.

All of this adds up to more effective prevention of a repeat of a particular causal factor in the future.

That translates to John Q. Taxpayer being happier, whether he knows it or not. Or maybe he'll just bitch about his tax dollars and his right to know and yadda-yadda-yadda, but he's better off. We're all better off. Privilege is good, but most misunderstand what is and what isn't privileged info.

The fact that those guys became disoriented and flew into a mountain isn't privileged info.

 

[KC-10 Driver]

Originally posted by Hugh Jorgan

Dude, do you not watch the news? Dirty laundry is about all you see reported on the military. Privilege (yes, I know it's hard to spell, but not that hard) has nothing to do with keeping secrets from the civilian sector. It's actually more about avoiding disciplinary action for information given in the course of an investigation than anything else. Not all information, just that which is deemed "privileged".
Why? So people will talk to the investigators truthfully without fear of repercussions.
Why? Because the more open witnesses are, the more accurate the info and the more likely true causes of mishaps can be determined.

All of this adds up to more effective prevention of a repeat of a particular causal factor in the future.

That translates to John Q. Taxpayer being happier, whether he knows it or not. Or maybe he'll just bitch about his tax dollars and his right to know and yadda-yadda-yadda, but he's better off. We're all better off. Privilege is good, but most misunderstand what is and what isn't privileged info.

The fact that those guys became disoriented and flew into a mountain isn't privileged info.

I was just thinking about how to reply to this thread when I read what Hugh wrote. Hugh, you hit it on the head.

Privilege rules exist for a very good reason -- to facilitate gathering the most accurate data possible about accidents. They are legal, and certainly don't amount to a cover-up.

Just because tax payer dollars are involved does not give everyone access to all information.

 

[exagony]

That's where you said it. And if you think alot of guys go Hot Dogging in military aviation, take another pill.

Sorry to hurt your feelings but you know the truth is that some of military guys hot dog around - they are just like everyone else - get off your high horse. In my time I've known plenty of military pilots who stood before the man for flying too low, fast, etc.. Doesn't make them bad pilots but they are not the "gods of aviation" that you seem to think.

Until these guys are poven to have done something wrong, SHUT IT.

Did I say they were hot doggin around? Did I say that THIS CREW was doing this NO!!! So why don't you shut it?

And if they did, so what. People make mistakes and sometimes die. Honor them regardless.

I honor them reguardless - I still would like to know what happened.

Don't ever compare me to you. You have no idea what i've done. I've been shot at, had an SA-6 go by my wingman, I lost 2 students in an S-3B, saved 23 people, and lost a girl in my partol boat. I'm not going into details, you don't deserve it. I did over 11 years active duty and over 6 reserve and I'm still serving, you?

I've been shot at more times in one firefight than you could dream of. Wow a SA-6 that you can most likely see and try to avoid vs a couple thousand rounds from some AK's that most of the time you can't even see where they are coming from- you're right I shouldn't compare you to me - you couldn't even come close. I've held more budies that were wounded and some that were dying in my arms then you have ever imagine- your right you can't compare again - You want to go toe to toe I've got you covered and then some. Not very tough to drop some bombs go home drink a beer and never see the results of your actions. Ever pick up the body parts of your friend? Probably not but if you did maybe you'd be close to me in that area. I don't know if I've ever saved anybody- I don't need to pat my own back- but by doing my job I sure as hell probably have.

The only one being disrespectful is you. I would NEVER look down upon any honorable serving member in the service in ANY BRANCH! You have talked down to the Navy, to pilots, and to the reserves. Your quote dishonors all Marines. You obviously don't have the maturity to recognize the difference.

Most Marines I've told the quote to laugh at it also. Its not meant to be disrespectful and most don't find it that way. I would bet I know a s#*tload more Marines then you do. Its just another way of expressing the fact that as Marines we are told that we are "expendable". That no matter how **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ty the situation we are going to go in and kick some ass and some of us will die due to the percieved stupidy of those ordering us into situations. Noticed I said percieved - the guy on the ground never has the big picture like the guys giving the orders and sometimes vice-versa.

You truly believe there are no heros alive? Tell that to the honorable wounded or those that saved lives.

I agree whole heartedly with you on this and I obviously didn't write this even though I meant to include them. you are absolutely 150% correct.

You want to go toe to toe, i've got my sleves up.

And your skirt down? Just kidding. Lets just agree to disagree about my belief that finding out what happened to this S-3 could help other pilots.

 

[SIG600]

And your skirt down? Just kidding. Lets just agree to disagree about my belief that finding out what happened to this S-3 could help other pilots.

No ones saying (especially me) that the public shouldn't be allowed to know what happened... but there ARE specifics that will not, can not, should not be discussed. Some of those could involve tactics, equipment, capabilities etc for you to get the full scope of what transpired. You'll know what the Navy thinks the public should know.

 

[exagony]

No ones saying (especially me) that the public shouldn't be allowed to know what happened... but there ARE specifics that will not, can not, should not be discussed. Some of those could involve tactics, equipment, capabilities etc for you to get the full scope of what transpired. You'll know what the Navy thinks the public should know.

I agree with you but if its something that doesn't compromise the said above let it out. I'm the last one who wants to give away our secrets but if the accident was caused by lets say disorientation or maybe an engine failure maybe we can learn something about it. The only reason I have even wasted time on this is because Bjammin seems to think that this is some 007 senario and that Navy pilots can do no wrong. We all know that the only ones who can do no wrong are the men's dept of Navy Aviation ie Marine Corps pilots. (just kidding)

 

[Bjammin]

I agree with you the S-3 accident could bring something good out. But only if the military thinks so.

As far as Foxholes and Cockpits, that debate will unfortunatly go on forever. Both have their dangers and both their heros. Just because I see heros in Aviation does not mean I believe there aren't any on the ground, quite the contrary. Aviation and patrol boats is where I have experience so it's where I have seen the sacrifice. Please don't demean my job as I don't demean yours.

I think you open yourself up for beatings with your quotes and sayings, and you thinking no-one else is "worthy" is upsetting. Thinking that guys who "drop bombs" and have a "beer" somehow have it easy is way wrong.

I'm tired of this debate. It's got the smell of 2 guys with too much testosterone. I'm out.

Thanks for your service as well.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

I agree with you but if its something that doesn't compromise the said above let it out.

Which part of "The government said the accident analysis report by the Navy said the crew mistook the image of the island on the radar for that of the ship, and then approached it and crashed."
is confusing to you?