Far 135.263 and .267 unscheduled

[gunfyter]

What is Rest?

8) Rest period means a period of time free of all restraint or duty for a certificate holder and free of all responsibility for work or duty should the occasion arise. A flight crewmember is not "free of all restraint" or "free of all responsibility" if that person must, among other things, accept phone calls, carry a beeper, or contact the air carrier. If a flight crewmember is not serving in assigned time, reserve time, standby duty or a duty period, that crewmember would be in a rest period.
​

 

[FLIIFAST]

Does everyone agree 14 hours is a drop dead...go to the hotel duty time?

 

[G100driver]

8) Rest period means a period of time free of all restraint or duty for a certificate holder and free of all responsibility for work or duty should the occasion arise. A flight crewmember is not "free of all restraint" or "free of all responsibility" if that person must, among other things, accept phone calls, carry a beeper, or contact the air carrier. If a flight crewmember is not serving in assigned time, reserve time, standby duty or a duty period, that crewmember would be in a rest period.

​

Gunfighter, while agree whole-heartedly with you, this looks like a Union contract or a 121 reg. Not the loosy, goosy BS world of 135.

 

[pilotyip]

flfast 14 is not a drop dead by the present regs, if is reasonably planned and there is delay you fly if you feel fit for flight.

 

[G100driver]

Pilotyip is correct. I cannot find the NBAA link to the legal opinion written by some FAA lawyer defining this, but this is correct.

You cannot PLAN to go over 14 hours. However, if your pax are stuck in rush-hour traffic, a TS causes a delay, or circumstances beyond your control you can legally take the flight.

If someone could post the link, it would clear up a lot of confusion.

 

[AngelKing]

Gunfyter, what you are quoting is true. You are just not quoting all of it. You are leaving out the part it says about "delays beyond your control"


AK

 

[Makesheepnervus]

Does everyone agree 14 hours is a drop dead...go to the hotel duty time?

Absolutely, no exceptions!

Search the regs; there are no exceptions ("unforseen circumstances", etc.) to the duty/rest rule. You must always have had 10 hours of uninterupted rest in the past 24 hours, no exceptions.

 

[charter dog]

Absolutely, no exceptions!

Search the regs; there are no exceptions ("unforseen circumstances", etc.) to the duty/rest rule. You must always have had 10 hours of uninterupted rest in the past 24 hours, no exceptions.

Hello, my fellow XJ grad!

That's what the regs say. FAA legal says something else. This has come up at my present job, unfortunately. The CP has distributed a paper copy of an FAA legal council opinion on this matter dated Aug, 1993. Without scanning and posting all 5 pages of this document, I'll just summarize. This applies only to operations conducted under the provisions of 135.267(b). (no regularily assigned duty periods, as it is with all of us charter dogs.)

The upshot is this:

If the planned duty period is realistically expected to be completed within 14 hours, then circumstances beyond the control of the operator and crew such as wx, late pax or cargo, mechanical difficulties or ATC delays which might cause the 14 hours to be exceeded do not require that the flight be terminated under the provisions of 135.267(b). Legal to start, legal to finish. However, the opinion also points out that prevention of flight crew fatigue is the joint responsibility of both the crew and operator. Both would be jointly liable for any violation of 91.13 which might arise if either the flight crew or operator knew, or should have known, that the crew was fatigued or lacked proper rest.

So the bottom line is that the rules allow planned duty time to be exceeded under the above stated circumstances unless either the flight crew or operator believe that continued operation beyond the scheduled period would violate the provisions of 91.13 (careless or reckless operation) As ever, the final decision rests on the shoulders of the PIC when the company wants you to go. Charter operators, even the biggest and most illustrious, are sometimes unable to look beyond the immediate need to satisfy the customer. The burden then rests sqarely on the shoulders of the flightcrew and in particular, the PIC. I will do what is right, and then find a way to rationalize it with the office! Considering the ramifications of 91.13 is a start. Responsible scheduling and consideration of crew fatigue issues on the part of the operator would be even better. Meanwhile, charter is what it is!

"This is the business we have chosen" (Hyman Roth, The Godfather Part II)

Best,

 

[pilotyip]

Thank you charter dog a nice touch of reality. It can be abused by companies, but you are allowed to go over 14 hrs duty in 135 ops if it is not planned.

 

[Syncit]

All in all when is it not planned, 14 hrs is a long day as is. Do not agree to this. Hopefully, your people will understand.
pilotyip, u r a dork!