Falcon 50 Vs. Hawker 800XP - need advice

[buckdanny]

Hi,

My student and I are starting a fractional ownership. He's been working on it for over a year and a half now, and things are coming together.

He already has a Hawker 800XP on order, is now considering a Falcon 50 instead. The plane is to be based in the SF bay area, and will fly a lot inside California. Also occasionally to Hawaii, and other destinations in the country.

Both planes can fly long distances. Is there one that is better than the other, or is it just a matter of personal preference? Which one is more comfortable for longer haul flights? Another aspect I was considering is the safety factor of having 3 engines on the Falcon. I am pretty new to this, so every advice will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Buck

 

[buckdanny]

Hi,

My student and I are starting a fractional ownership. He's been working on it for over a year and a half now, and things are coming together.

He already has a Hawker 800XP on order, and is now considering a Falcon 50 instead. The plane is to be based in the SF bay area, and will fly a lot inside California. Also occasionally to Hawaii, and other destinations in the country.

Both planes can fly long distances. Is there one that is better than the other, or is it just a matter of personal preference? Which one is more comfortable for longer haul flights? Another aspect I was considering is the safety factor of having 3 engines on the Falcon. I am pretty new to this, so every advice will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Buck

 

[Rick1128]

If you do HNL any amount, the 50 offers some advantage in that it will not be affected by the proposed ETOPS rules for 135/91 operators. If you do mostly semi local stuff the Hawker operates much cheaper than the 50.

But another point is that in that class of aircraft you will do a lot of trips to places like Tahoe, Aspen, Jackson Hole. The 50 is a no sweat a/c out of these airports just about all the time. The Hawker can be quit limited, esspecially in the summer.

 

[cgmason1]

Believe a Hawker 800XP would have a wet footprint in some conditions going to Hawaii.
Besides you can never beat a third engine(Falcon 50)when going over water.

Fly Safe
Chuck

 

[NJAowner]

Baggage

Can't speak for the technical issues but the 800XP can barely hold a briefcase and a hanging bag. The Falcon has a good bit of aft storage whereas the Hawker is just an interior closet. This may be an issue for your owners.

 

[LAZYB]

Falcon 50 has to have better baggage space. The cabin is bigger.

 

[hawkercpt]

The 800XP

is a good airplane, but any airplane that bangs an engine on take off and its only an abnormal procedure (DA-50), rather than an emergency can't be beat. More baggage, more range, better short field ability, the Falcon is the way to go. Just put the gas you need on and go.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[2000flyer]

If you do HNL any amount, the 50 offers some advantage in that it will not be affected by the proposed ETOPS rules for 135/91 operators. If you do mostly semi local stuff the Hawker operates much cheaper than the 50.

But another point is that in that class of aircraft you will do a lot of trips to places like Tahoe, Aspen, Jackson Hole. The 50 is a no sweat a/c out of these airports just about all the time. The Hawker can be quit limited, esspecially in the summer.

I'd have to agree with Rick1128. However, I have not seen any proposals on ETOPS for Part 91 operators. Rick1128, if you have more info, please post or PM. A search of NBAA shows references only to Part 135 operators, not 91:

From NBAA Update (#03-48):

"NBAA is developing comments to the proposed FAA Regulations on Extended Operations (ETOPS) of Multi-Engine Airplanes. These regulations would establish aircraft certification and operating standards for long-range flights conducted under FAR Part 135. The standards would limit all Part 135 aircraft operations to within 180 minutes of an airport unless the FAA approves the operator for extended operations. NBAA will host a one-day meeting in Washington, DC in early January 2004 to discuss the rule and identify areas for comment. To participate in the meeting and for location details, contact NBAA's Mike Nichols at [email protected]. To download a copy of the proposed rule in PDF format, visit: web.nbaa.org/public/ops/#etops."

Regards,
2000Flyer

 

[banned username 2]

Falcon 50 all the way... Especially if he can get a 50EX model... Fast, High and Far... All out of a short runway... Can't be beat in its class for runway/range performance. Plus I think the 50 cabin is a tad larger and the baggage space is a LOT larger than the Hawker 800XP.

 

[800XP]

My opinion:

I'd go with the Falcon.

 

[Astra Guy]

The 50, hands down.

 

[Rick1128]

There have been some proposals to make the proposed 135 ETOPS regs match the proposed EU ETOPS regs. EU ETOPS proposal also includes part 91 operators. More of the FAA bending over for the EU.

 

[2000flyer]

There have been some proposals to make the proposed 135 ETOPS regs match the proposed EU ETOPS regs. EU ETOPS proposal also includes part 91 operators. More of the FAA bending over for the EU.

True, but from all I've read to date, EU ETOPS will only be required for EU registered aircraft.

In reading the FAA's future 'play book', they do appear to be taking a more "ICAO" approach to things. In some aspects, we're well behind European practices (can you imagine doing 350 KIAS @ 4000' near TEB?). The FAA is gearing up RNAV routes, finally getting around to DRVSM and a host of other projects.

2000Flyer

 

[Valkyrie]

The Falcon 50 is expensive in a cabin point of view.

But if you have that extra money, you get a stylish and safe performer (better RWY, CLIMB, CRZ, CEILING perf.)

If you can afford the 50EX, you'll have one of the best aircraft available.

 

[Live4flyng]

If you are starting a Fractional Ownership company and not operating yet, you might want to review the 91K regs. I'm pretty sure I read a blurb in there about only operating under 91K if you weren't in existence before October or November of 2003. Make sure you can comply with everything before you buy the plane. My vote is for the 50, it's a nice airplane.

 

[Rick1128]

US a/c in europe are being held to JAR standards. Both flight crew members are being required to hold types. Even though ICAO states that pilots must be liecenced in accordance to the nationalality of the aircraft. So don't hold your breath on the ETOPS issue.

As for what aircraft, it really comes down to what the boss wants and what will do the job.

 

[2000flyer]

US a/c in europe are being held to JAR standards. Both flight crew members are being required to hold types. Even though ICAO states that pilots must be liecenced in accordance to the nationalality of the aircraft. So don't hold your breath on the ETOPS issue.
.

I've heard other countries checking pilot's though I have never personally been asked by an EASA (formerly JAA) official for verification of certificates. Thats not to say I don't agree that at some point I'm sure we'll follow their rule of ETOPS. I think, staying on the organized tracks (or around them on a random route) you'd be hard pressed to be more than 180 minutes from a suitable airport in the North Atlantic, obviously figuring normal or typical conditions. I think those trying to go a more southerly route, say between Bermuda and Santa Maria or a more direct route to Africa will begin running into problems.

2000Flyer

 

[buckdanny]

Thank you very much for the replies. I think he is going to talk to the partners (those with the $$$$) about the F50. Thanks again, I will probably post something when we get moving!

Buck

 

[JetA1]

Buckdanny,

I have extensive fraction experience...from start up to one of the major providers. Better do your homework...if you need advise drop me a msg.

Regards

 

[CL60]

Very different mission designs...

The idea of Fractional ownership is based upon having multiple aircraft with multiple owners so that mathematically, most owners will have access to "their" aircraft when they need to fly. From what it looks like, you will have one aircraft with multiple owners... a bit more difficult to satisfy all the partner's individual needs.

You say that you will be "flying a lot in California" and occasionally going to Hawaii so you must have already collected identified some mission data. (If you're going to Hawaii, forget about reliable 800 trips in the winter when everyone wants to go. Starting a trip without a wet footprint may be challenging). What is your average estimated stage length? What will be your estimated average pax load? Do you need baggage space for skis? Golf clubs?

You say that:
"Both planes can fly long distances. Is there one that is better than the other, or is it just a matter of personal preference? Which one is more comfortable for longer haul flights? Another aspect I was considering is the safety factor of having 3 engines on the Falcon. I am pretty new to this, so every advice will be greatly appreciated!"


I'm not sure I'd clasify the 800XP as a long distance aircraft at around 2,500 nm/LRC but the Falcon 50EX advertises about 3,100 nm/.80. Not bad.

The question about personal preference is subjective.

Yes 3 engines are better than two unless you're thinking about operating cost, maintenance, etc...

Both are great airplanes for what they were individually designed to do. You may need to do a bit more research before deciding on any aircraft. There are others that may better fit your mission profile.

Good luck,

 

[NJAowner]

My 2 cents

Please remember a few things. The man who started the fractional business had an advanced math degree and studied years of data to refine the algorithm for an efficient (or as efficient as it can be) operation. 2 key factors: not too many planes and employees for your slowest days, yet the ability to handle your busiest non-peak days. That is where the core fleet came in. On the 10 peak days, you may use charter (though it is expensive), but you need to handle the rest of the year efficiently. No owner wants to hear his plane is not available.

That is the main reason why aircraft are better fractional ownership items than what your see now in the marketplace: yachts and homes. If I go away for a Christmas holiday, I do not keep the plane busy the whole week. Just a few hours and we all leave at different times. We can't all spend Christmas on our frax yacht.

Make sure your numbers work. There is a huge difference between co-ownership (i.e., several people own the plane) and true fractional.

Good luck; p.m. me if you want. I have alot of experience with business plans from all side.