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Falcon 2000EASY or Soverign Thoughts?

LRvsH25B

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Word came down Wednesday that we are going to add an additional (makes 2 total) aircraft this summer. For what Mr. Buck$ is wanting to utilized it for, I have narrowed his choices down to a Falcon 2000, Citation Soverign, or a Hawker 4000. I have a friend flying the 4000, but wanted to get input on the Falcon and Citation before I speak with a sales associate.

The 2000 will be a Easy cockpit, if the market has any. It's my understanding the 2000 is a fuel miser.

Main concerns are the fuel burns, AOG issues, and being able to come of out a SL aerodome year round and going 1300 to 1800 NM with 6 people and lots of luggage.

Thanks
 

BoilerUP

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Don't fly either, but right off the bat the Sovereign will be about $10M cheaper to acquire than a DA2EASy. Of course that $10M difference buys you a much larger cabin (6 inches taller, 26 inches wider, about 6 feet longer), more full-fuel payload (1200lb in the Sovereign vs. 2600lb in the 2000DX/1740 in the 2000EX), and more max range (~2900nm in the Sovereign vs. 3500nm in the DX and 4000nm in the EX).

The 2008 B&CA Purchase Planning Handbook shows a Sovereign will do 1000nm with 4 pax in 2+22 and 3749lbs, where the 2000DX does it in 2+21 and 3836lbs. It also shows the Sovereign will depart sea level/ISA @ MTOW (30.3k) in 3640ft where the Falcon 2000DX (41.0k) needs 5300ft and the 2000EX (42.2k) needs 5585ft.

Obviously not first-hand info, but hope some of this helps...
 

Hugh Johnson

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What are you guys flying now? I see you have Falcon types so you should know about the dispatch reliability of Falcons. Why are you looking at the Easy cockpit? Do your other Falcons have that? If they do and you fly two types, the same cockpit layout makes it much easier. If not, why the extra expense. A straight 2000 or 2000 EX might be competitive.
 

LRvsH25B

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What are you guys flying now? I see you have Falcon types so you should know about the dispatch reliability of Falcons.

We currently lease a G550 and will probably buy in next it. At my last job, we had a Lear 60, and we bought a 50EX and I flew it for about 2 months. My current job came along, so I put in my 2 week notice. Only have about 45 or 50 hours in Falcons.



Why are you looking at the Easy cockpit? Do your other Falcons have that? If they do and you fly two types, the same cockpit layout makes it much easier.

The Easy cockpit is a desire in order to take full advantage of the current market. When the market returns, I'm hoping to have positioned my employer with an asset that is technologically modern and can be liquidated easily if necessary, along with a nice profit. It's just me trying to look out for them if need be, although I have gotten no indication that would even be the case.


If not, why the extra expense. A straight 2000 or 2000 EX might be competitive.

We're in a position to do it, and then some, so the timing seems to be just right in order to justify the expense. If the #s are not what I am hoping they are, then the 2K EX will be the golden goose if we go with Falcon, which I am particularily attracted to becasue of the fuel burns and somewhat of a 3/4 slat. I'm not a micro manager, so it will probably be a year or so after we take delivery before i go to school on it, so it's not something I am going to be intimately familiar with. Whatever we get, I do want the guys flying it to enjoy the aircraft and take a personal interest in it's operation and the logistics that go along with it just because I won't know much about it once we get it up and going.
 

rondo

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Apples and oranges. You get what you pay for.
I'd go with the da2000, but I'm not footing the bill.
 

sleepy

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I fly the DA-50EX and DA-900B. I recently flew the DA-2000 sim during recurrent (rumor is we are replacing the 50's with the 2000EX Easy, who knows?). Anyway, I flew a Sovereign we aquired for maybe 50 hours a few years ago. I would take any Falcon over the Sovereign. It isn't even close.

I once flew a HS-125-800XP, I would take the Sovereign over any Hawker.
 

Cat3C

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vs?

I d not know anything about the Sovereign but I guess I know a bit about the 2000 and 2000EXEASy having flown them both for the last 8 years (3+in the EZ).
The EZ is a much more reliable a/c then what it was at first due to several software upgrades. Our dispatch reliability is probably exactly like our 2000s were and they were awesome. Support from Honeywell and Dassault has been excellent.

We operate out of a 5000 ft runway and get to where we are going as needed. Yes you get hits with wet and engine A/I like other a/c. Short trips and long trips are comfortable and efficient.

I usually plan for 2300, 1700,1600, etc. The longest I have flown is PHOG to KPWK just around 8 hrs, good wx, and little help from wind. All things being equal I always go to 40, 41, 43 and have no problems getting to the higher alititudes unless you are very heavy.

The EASy is great. Lots of information, very automated, and intuitive. Autothrottles do a good job in almost all phases of flight.

Most importantly, the people paying the bills love the airplane. They like the room, quiet cabin, capabilities for our missions and lack of major ramp presence. Overall it is a very good airplane. I am fairly certain that there are some good deals on a/c including the Cessna. Demo them both and talk with some operators.

Hope it helps out in some way and all the best
 

vikaero

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Before looking at the Sovereign I'd look at the CL30, lots of good deals to be had, awesome performance, good economy and value.
 

LRvsH25B

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Before looking at the Sovereign I'd look at the CL30, lots of good deals to be had, awesome performance, good economy and value.
Appreciate everybody's input. Please keep it coming. I learned a long time ago to talk to those who do instead of those who sale in order to see what the airplane is truly capable of. This is great. Thanks.

As for the CL30, I was told upfront that nothing from Bombardier was to be considered. "Please don't waste my time" I believe was the exact wording. The owners had a CL60 before I came aboard, and the support from up north was an experience they are not going to repeat under any circumstance. I know they make good equipment, but their past failures are coming back to bite them.
 

X man

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sovereign/ falcon 2000

I flew the Sovereign all over the ME and India, great aircraft, but every time I parked next to the Falcon 2000, I was so impressed. Large cabin, great cockpit, good numbers and range. Its more money but its a lot more aircraft. I talked to the crew on an easy in Cairo, the old timer thought their was too much information to be had with the EFIS, the younger co-captain thought it was just right.

Good Luck what ever you end up with, at least your working
 

vikaero

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Ahhhh... Bombardier service / support helps sell another competitor's product once again !!! I agree with your boss, though I must say that they have been trying real hard with us.
 

BEfly

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New or used? Either way you guys could probably steal one right now with the market so poor and bogged down with inventory. One of our owners is looking at a soverign so I'm curious as to what guys have to say about them.
 

sleepy

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New or used? Either way you guys could probably steal one right now with the market so poor and bogged down with inventory. One of our owners is looking at a soverign so I'm curious as to what guys have to say about them.

We didn't have the Sovereign for very long. It was my first and only Cessna jet, so I don't know how it compairs to other Cessna products. It was not a bad aircraft, a lot of bang for the buck is my opinion. It is nowhere close to a Falcon in technology, performance, or quality, but it doesn't cost as much as a Falcon either.

The best thing about the Sovereign compaired to other aircraft in its class is the baggage space. The PW engines are nice, but I feel like they should be air start (it takes forever to start them with a starter/gen). The Epic avionics are nice, except that you couldn't used the v bar flight director (maybe that has been fixed?) because of a software problem.

Over-all, a good plane for the money.
 

SeaSpray

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Before looking at the Sovereign I'd look at the CL30, lots of good deals to be had, awesome performance, good economy and value.


CL30 = One pack, one trim air valve - No IRSs - Tiny Galley - Bombardier Support. No thanks.
 

jonjuan

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CL30 = One pack, one trim air valve - No IRSs - Tiny Galley - Bombardier Support. No thanks.

Instead of listening to the guy who has never flown/operated the Sovereign, 300, or 2000, why not call 10-15 flight departments that actually FLY the things? If it's a big deal to your boss, why not go pay a few flight departments a visit? I'm sure they would be more than receptive. I can't believe that you would make a recommendation and have the boss make a decision based on the feedback you receive here on FI.
 

siucavflight

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Good for your boss on saying no to the CL30. Bombardier makes some great products, but their support is an absolute joke.
I am a bit worried, at work it is sounding like we are getting rid of the G550, and shopping a Global Express. While I love the Global Express I would hate to give up my seat in the Gulfstream, and I am scared of Bombardiers support for the airplane, I have heard nothing but nightmares.

As far as the two aircraft your boss is looking at, go with the Falcon, all the numbers (except for runway) are better, sure it is more expensive, but with the EASY deck the resale value should stay relatively high.
 

LRvsH25B

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Instead of listening to the guy who has never flown/operated the Sovereign, 300, or 2000, why not call 10-15 flight departments that actually FLY the things? If it's a big deal to your boss, why not go pay a few flight departments a visit? I'm sure they would be more than receptive. I can't believe that you would make a recommendation and have the boss make a decision based on the feedback you receive here on FI.
JonJuan, I think you know I am not going to use FI as my only source of research on the aircraft we are looking at acquiring.
FI has a diverse group of pilots who have flown all modern aircraft, so yes, I am going to start by speaking to the pros on here who have experience in the equipment on the table.
As for approaching other departments, yes, that is an option, but as you know, most of these companies with the exact aircraft we are considering are trying to keep a low profile, so the flying is not as abundant as it once was and the opprotunities to "pay them" are just not there.
Finally, it is my personal belief that this site is an excellent sourcefor doing exactly what I am trying to do. Furthermore, I'll not apoligize for using this site for reasearch, as I believe one of its many uses is research.
 

LJ45

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Good for your boss on saying no to the CL30. Bombardier makes some great products, but their support is an absolute joke.
I am a bit worried, at work it is sounding like we are getting rid of the G550, and shopping a Global Express. While I love the Global Express I would hate to give up my seat in the Gulfstream, and I am scared of Bombardiers support for the airplane, I have heard nothing but nightmares.

As far as the two aircraft your boss is looking at, go with the Falcon, all the numbers (except for runway) are better, sure it is more expensive, but with the EASY deck the resale value should stay relatively high.

I have flown and managed Bombardier/Learjets for over 10 years and have two friends flying two CL30 right now. I would say you statement and fears are a little worked up. Yes, they are not prefect, but they try and do ok. We have had no problems the last few years with parts or service. The CL30 is a really good airplane for the money and operating cost.
 

siucavflight

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I have flown and managed Bombardier/Learjets for over 10 years and have two friends flying two CL30 right now. I would say you statement and fears are a little worked up. Yes, they are not prefect, but they try and do ok. We have had no problems the last few years with parts or service. The CL30 is a really good airplane for the money and operating cost.
That is good to hear, hopefully what I have heard has been exaggerated.
 

NJAFracPilot

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If you're thinking about the CL30, you should also consider the G200. Our customers who have them really like the cabin and it has all the stuff SeaSpray says the Challenger doesn't have. With the G250 coming, G200 prices ought to be pretty good.

If you're thinking about the Falcon 2000 versus the Sovereign - there's no contest, get the Falcon for all the reasons everyone else has already stated.





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