fail type ride three times = loose ticket?

satpak77

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Ok, hangar talk today about a guy at our airport who has failed his type ride for a corporate jet two times, and is about to go for attempt #3.

It came up that if he fails, the FAA will flag his file and require him to fly with a fed.

true/false? Official source of info to back it up?
 

stupidpilot

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Loose ticket or lose ticket?
 

SEVEN

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Ok, hangar talk today about a guy at our airport who has failed his type ride for a corporate jet two times, and is about to go for attempt #3.

It came up that if he fails, the FAA will flag his file and require him to fly with a fed.

true/false? Official source of info to back it up?
If he fails a 3rd time....maybe riding with a Fed isn't his biggest problem. Time to reconsider the Big Picture. Maybe this flying passenger for money thing isn't for him. Failing a type rating for the same airplane twice should raise flags. I wouldn't want to be his passenger if the crap ever hit the fan.
 

avbug

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Satpak,

What you're referring to is typically called a "709 Ride." (It used to be called a "609 Ride," and you may hear some still refer to it by that name).

The 709 ride need not wait for three failures for the same test, but multiple failures can certainly generate a requirement for re-examination by the FAA. You can read about it in the current FSIMS at:

http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=6B5517EC9C4A91258525734F00766681

The FAA can elect to re-examine an airplane at any time. Most don't realize it, but the result of any flight check may be a pass, a fail, or the loss of airman privileges, as well. The circumstances under which one might lose airplane privileges during a practical test for a certificate, rating, or privilege are rare...but failure of a checkride can certainly lead to a 709 ride...and that can and does lead to the loss of certification or privileges.

In a nutshell, a 709 ride is being required to re-test in order to keep one's certification. It's a test to see if one is competent to hold the pilot certificates and ratings he or she currently holds. It may be wrought by failures in practical tests for certificates or ratings. It may be wrought by involvement in an accident or incident, or may be attached following a violation or enforcement action.

A 709 ride isn't punishment; it's an honest evaluation to see if one is competent as a pilot, and it's separate from any other punishment which might be administered (in the case of enforcement action, for example).

Section 1 Conduct a Reexamination Test of an Airman Under Title 49 of the United States Code

5-1416 PROGRAM TRACKING AND REPORTING SUBSYSTEM (PTRS) ACTIVITY CODE. 1534.

5-1417 OBJECTIVE. The objective of this task is to determine if an airman is qualified to exercise the privileges of a particular airman certificate or rating. Completion of this task results in either no action taken against the airman’s certificate or rating, or initiation of an enforcement investigation.

5-1418 GENERAL.

A. Authority. Under Title 49 of the United States Code (49 U.S.C.) section 44709 (formerly section 609 of the Federal Aviation Act (FA Act) of 1958), the Administrator is authorized to reexamine any airman at any time. Reexamination of an airman does not hinder the taking of punitive enforcement action when appropriate. When an airman fails to comply with a request for reexamination, section 44709 provides legal procedures to be followed to enforce reinspection or reexamination. Detailed information on the enforcement aspects is found in Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Order 2150.3, Compliance and Enforcement Program.

B. Basis for Reexamination. The reexamination of an airman on the basis of lack of competency is never to be undertaken lightly. There must be ample or probable cause for requesting the reexamination. In most cases a reexamination will result from the inspector’s investigation of an accident or incident where the pilot’s competence was the apparent cause of the occurrence.

5-1419 BASIS OF REEXAMINATION TEST. When an inspector has sufficient reason to believe that an airman may not be qualified to exercise the privileges of a particular certificate or rating, a reexamination may be required. The inspector reaches this conclusion either through reliable reports, personal knowledge, or on the basis of evidence obtained through an accident, incident, or enforcement investigation.
FAA Order 2150.3 provides some guidance regarding failed checkrides or attempts at checkrides, and it's not limited to 709 rides. While FAA Order 2150.3 addresses enforcement action, a 709 ride isn't necessarily attached or connected to enforcement action (can be triggered by other events)...it can also come associated with or following enforcement action. Failure of multiple practical tests can lead to that end, as well.

From FAA Order 2150.3:

d. Unsuccessful Reexamination or Reinspection. If the certificate holder submits to
reexamination or reinspection and does not establish qualifications, and does not voluntarily
surrender that certificate or rating for cancellation, FAA enforcement personnel follow the
procedures in chapter 5, subparagraph 6.d.(1)-(3).

(1) The FAA investigative personnel or office with medical responsibility prepares an
EIR, recommending revocation of the certificate or rating. This generally is on an emergency
basis, unless an order suspending the certificate or rating is already in effect and the FAA holds
the certificate.

(2) The EIR is assigned a new report number. Any companion report number that was
assigned to an earlier EIR in connection with certificate suspension is stated in the related
number block. If revocation action is taken against only part of the certificate, such as a single
rating, for example, the appropriate FAA investigative personnel or office with medical
responsibility issues the necessary temporary certificate or new certificate with the remaining
privileges. FAA investigative personnel include evidence of the failure to demonstrate
qualifications as an item of proof in the EIR. For airman medical cases only, the EIR prepared
by the office with medical responsibility need only consist of section A (FAA Form 2150-5) and
supporting documentation listed in chapter 5, subparagraph 6.c.(2).

(3) The FAA does not allow an airman who has not demonstrated qualifications to try
repeatedly to prove qualification. Generally, if the airman has twice submitted to reexamination
and has twice failed, the certificate or rating is revoked.
The opportunity for a second
reexamination is allowed when the airman voluntarily places his or her certificate on deposit
with the FAA following the first failure while the certificate holder prepares for the second
attempt.
The guideline above is specifically directed to one who is being re-examined and failed, as opposed to one who has attempted certification outside the FAA (eg, a designated examiner, Part 142 testing agency, etc). However, multiple failures frequently do result in 709 action, which can result in certificate revocation...or revocation can result pending a 709 ride for the final decision.

It should be noted that an airman who fails to accept an order to take a 709 ride will become the subject of enforcement action; most commonly certificate suspension or revocation.

An individual who fails multiple tests upon the recommendation of the same instructor or training center may also cause the instructor or training center under "surveillance." This means being closely watched by the FAA...which may lead to investigation or recertification requirements for the instructor or training center.
 

Browntothebone

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If he fails a 3rd time....maybe riding with a Fed isn't his biggest problem. Time to reconsider the Big Picture. Maybe this flying passenger for money thing isn't for him. Failing a type rating for the same airplane twice should raise flags. I wouldn't want to be his passenger if the crap ever hit the fan.

Your right. He should take a job flying frieght instead. He's to dangerous to fly people around.
 

avbug

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Cancelled checks don't have families.
A rather asinine statement, to say the least. You mean to say what, exactly?

A pilot who lacks competence won't hurt as many people by failing at the controls, if he's flying freight? You're discounting all the people on the ground beneath...the other crewmember with whom he flies?

If he's not competent he can still fly, just not passengers? What exactly are you suggesting?
 

SEVEN

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A rather asinine statement, to say the least. You mean to say what, exactly?

A pilot who lacks competence won't hurt as many people by failing at the controls, if he's flying freight? You're discounting all the people on the ground beneath...the other crewmember with whom he flies?

If he's not competent he can still fly, just not passengers? What exactly are you suggesting?
My original reply was based on the fact that he is flying passengers and may be unsafe. If he was flying freight and was failing type ride after type ride I would suggest the same thing. Maybe this ain't the career for him. Didn't mean to suggest that freight pilots are not important.
 

JAFI

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Not only would I talk to the applicant with multiple failures, I would talk to the Instructor/school who keeps sending him/her for the exam.

Could be more than one 44709 Re-examination......
 

AMANSWORLD

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I personally know two very experienced pilots that were given 709's. These were given by pissed off Fed's in both cases and the things the pilots did were not even "bust" items.

The truth is a 709 can be issued without 3 busts. In fact it can be issued after one bust or one incident or one accident or just a pissed off FAA Fed can make stuff up should he not like you. And that is the truth.

Also what one should know is a 709 can consist of an oral, written, and flight (practical eval) for every license and rating incurred through the years including ALL type ratings, weather, etc, etc, etc,.

This is the mother of all checkrides. And you want to know the best part about it. The ass who gave it to you (the pissed FAA guy) is the one who has the authority to have first dibs on your ass. No petitions or recourse. AT ALL!!!

And that is how it works in the real world my friend.

And no I was not one of the guys...lol
 
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JAFI

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This topic comes up once in a while. You can listen to rumor or read what the FAA Order says on how a 44709 Re-examination is to be conducted. I have given a few and not once was I pissed off or "out to get some one". I can't and will not speak for all Inspectors, - But the story is always better when there are sub plots......


In case you really want to read for your self:

http://fsims.faa.gov/PICResults.aspx?mode=EBookContents


9/13/07

8900.1 Chapter 0

VOLUME 5 AIRMAN CERTIFICATION

CHAPTER 7 REEXAMINATION OF AN AIRMAN

Section 1 Conduct a Reexamination Test of an Airman Under Title 49 of the United States Code

5-1416 PROGRAM TRACKING AND REPORTING SUBSYSTEM (PTRS) ACTIVITY CODE. 1534.

5-1417 OBJECTIVE. The objective of this task is to determine if an airman is qualified to exercise the privileges of a particular airman certificate or rating. Completion of this task results in either no action taken against the airman’s certificate or rating, or initiation of an enforcement investigation.

5-1418 GENERAL.

A. Authority. Under Title 49 of the United States Code (49 U.S.C.) section 44709 (formerly section 609 of the Federal Aviation Act (FA Act) of 1958), the Administrator is authorized to reexamine any airman at any time. Reexamination of an airman does not hinder the taking of punitive enforcement action when appropriate. When an airman fails to comply with a request for reexamination, section 44709 provides legal procedures to be followed to enforce reinspection or reexamination. Detailed information on the enforcement aspects is found in Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Order 2150.3, Compliance and Enforcement Program.

B. Basis for Reexamination. The reexamination of an airman on the basis of lack of competency is never to be undertaken lightly. There must be ample or probable cause for requesting the reexamination. In most cases a reexamination will result from the inspector’s investigation of an accident or incident where the pilot’s competence was the apparent cause of the occurrence.

5-1419 BASIS OF REEXAMINATION TEST. When an inspector has sufficient reason to believe that an airman may not be qualified to exercise the privileges of a particular certificate or rating, a reexamination may be required. The inspector reaches this conclusion either through reliable reports, personal knowledge, or on the basis of evidence obtained through an accident, incident, or enforcement investigation.


As to the pissed off Inspector part:

5-1420 SPECIAL CONSIDERATIONS.

A. Handling an Airman’s Response to a Reexamination Letter at an Office Other than the Requesting Office. Usually, the FSDO that requested the reexamination by letter conducts the reexamination test and follows up with any needed enforcement action. However, an airman may respond to a reexamination letter by contacting a FSDO that did not issue the letter. In such a case, the inspector at the other FSDO must contact the FSDO that requested the reexamination.



The legal basis is in the US Code of Regulations under Transportation:

http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode49/usc_sec_49_00044709----000-.html


Title 49 US Code

44709. Amendments, modifications, suspensions, and revocations of certificates

(a) Reinspection and Reexamination.— The Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration may reinspect at any time a civil aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, design organization, production certificate holder, air navigation facility, or air agency, or reexamine an airman holding a certificate issued under section 44703 of this title.
 
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