FAA Times Help!

[ricfa78]

I'm a flight attendant shop steward at my company and I had filed a grievance because an FA was illegally rerouted due to her duty time that day. Is there anyplace I can go to see the actual times of the flight she deadheaded on for proof as to the actual departure time and arrival time and to show what time the delay was put onto that flight. I heard there was an air traffic control website that showed these times but I forgot what that website was. Our company has incorrectly recorded the times to reflect that she was legal when she was not. She had deadheaded on another carrier so it's a little difficult to prove otherwise without using ATC records. Your help is appreciated!

 

[SiuDude]

Try flightaware.com. It will not give you block times though, just flight times. The other airline's website may be a good source for block times.

 

[atrdriver]

You can contact the operations people at the airline she Dh'ed on, I would imagine that the CPs would ahve the phone number. That would be the only 100% accurate numbers, as ATC records only show wheels up to wheels down. You can go to www.flightaware.com to get a pretty close idea of takeoff and landing times, but not block to block.

You might also be able to post the flight number and date here and someone might look into the computer at their company and get you the times, but if you want to do that you better do it fairly fast, because the times don't stay around forever.

 

[Sig]

I don't know how long that information lasts.

As an 11 month newhire, my company did exactly the same thing to me, but I am a devious little bastard and printed the actual times for departure as scheduled in SABRE for every leg I was to operate and lastly DH in on, and proved point blank that they fudged my turns and block to make it legal. They gave me a worthless crew card that didn't jive with the actual duty (14:30 scheduled) I'd be subject to- is that the same problem?

In other words, maybe the actual "system" (ie, SABRE) can help, but I have no idea if that information dies on the vine or if any website can tell you when the plane departed.

As far as remarks for putting delays, I have no idea if those are explicitly timestamped when they're put in too- who knows if that helps.

 

[bvt1151]

The DOT numbers will show you airline reported block times. PM me the flights you need and I'll look them up for you.

 

[Sig]

Is there a one-stop shop on the web to find that information, BVT? If so, drop a link here.

If anyone else out there is familiar with delay coding, could you explain if they're timestamped with a trail leading up to who put it in?

When PHL is being totally jacked up, I'll call the times in to dispatch directly with the actual reason why we were late. Otherwise, it's a crew delay.

Airways is getting realllllly creative lately with their DOT numbers. The one that chaps my bright red ring is the way we've been ferrying a/c under the original flight number as a 121 revenue flight- without pax. NICE! Completion factor stays the same, but people are riding buses (busses? biessen?) to their destination.

 

[bvt1151]

There isn't a one-stop shop for that. The problem is that these databases cover every flight throughout the month and can get rediculously large. Too large, in fact, to run on a single web server without sustaining serious performance issues. I'm working on ways to fix it, but as of right now, I just have the db's on a local computer that can take several minutes to find the info, depending on what you're looking for.

If I could get something, say like only the last year's worth of flights, would there be interest in it? I'd offer it free, but would need to guarantee a certain amount of traffic for the ads to pay for the server.

 

[ricfa78]

Thanks BVT

I will have to wait until I talk to her again to get the flight number since I can't look it up on her schedule without her. I will get that to you as soon as I get it from her! All I know is the deadhead was on Air Wisconsin.

 

[ricfa78]

Thanks for all the advice!

 

[mckpickle]

Keep in mind the FAA may not consider DH part of the duty time for FA's. The rules are not the same as for pilots. This sort of thing is normally covered in your CBA.

 

[igneousy2]

Sec. 121.491

Flight time limitations: Deadhead transportation.

Time spent in deadhead transportation to or from duty assignment is not considered to be a part of a rest period.

Actually the rule (above) applies to both pilots at flight attendants under part 121.

1. Deadhead time is not rest
2. Flight time limits and duty time limits of part 121 do not apply to DH for pilots or FA's. A pilot can legally be scheduled to deadhead after being on duty for 16 hours. Actually a pilot can legally be scheduled for training, repo flights, mx hops, DH, ground school...whatever, as long as you can look back and see 24 hours of rest in the last 7 days and 9 hours in the last 24 before you accept assignment for a flight operated under part 121.

Thankfully most contracts impose stricter limits on the company which is what I believe the original poster was refering to.

Later

 

[Copydat]

Riddle me this:
In the above decription part of the explanation says "A pilot can legally be scheduled to deadhad after being on duty for 16 hours...... as long as you can look back and see 24 hours of rest in the last 7 days and 9 hours in the last 24 before you accept assignment for a flight operated under part 121."

My question is, how can you have 9 hours of rest in the previous 24 if you also worked 16 hours? I believe you will find that if you worked 16 hours today you will have a max reduced rest of 8 hours in the previous 24. I am subtracting 16 hours from a 24 hour period and getting a remainder of 8 hours. Anything else is management math. Of course I could have a shorted brain cell, if so please advise.

 

[No Delay]

I had to read that 3 times....


It was my understanding there would be no math in this job.

 

[Mr Wu]

Basically what it means is they can keep you on duty as long as they want, as long as they give you the required rest before you fly a 121 leg.

 

[igneousy2]

Riddle me this:
In the above decription part of the explanation says "A pilot can legally be scheduled to deadhad after being on duty for 16 hours...... as long as you can look back and see 24 hours of rest in the last 7 days and 9 hours in the last 24 before you accept assignment for a flight operated under part 121."

My question is, how can you have 9 hours of rest in the previous 24 if you also worked 16 hours? I believe you will find that if you worked 16 hours today you will have a max reduced rest of 8 hours in the previous 24. I am subtracting 16 hours from a 24 hour period and getting a remainder of 8 hours. Anything else is management math. Of course I could have a shorted brain cell, if so please advise.

deadheading, mx hops, repos, etc. are not "assignment for a flight operated under part 121...therefore...you can work 16 hours worth of 121 flights and then be made to deadhead home without it being a regulation violation.

Later

 

[Copydat]

I realize that required rest does not apply to part 91 flights. I was asking how you came up with 9 hours of rest on a lookback after a 16 hour duty period, that would require 25 hours in a day.

 

[Copydat]

deadheading, mx hops, repos, etc. are not "assignment for a flight operated under part 121...therefore...you can work 16 hours worth of 121 flights and then be made to deadhead home without it being a regulation violation.

Later

Guys that agree to do this at our airline make it hard on the grievance committe and their fellow pilots. Scheduling and the chief pilots will say "Mr. Smith are you refusing the flight? Mr. X had no problem doing this when we gave him a similar assignment." I contend that 1) it is not safe 2) do not destroy your work agreement.

 

[n32jk]

Sec. 121.491

Flight time limitations: Deadhead transportation.

Time spent in deadhead transportation to or from duty assignment is not considered to be a part of a rest period.

Actually the rule (above) applies to both pilots at flight attendants under part 121.

1. Deadhead time is not rest
2. Flight time limits and duty time limits of part 121 do not apply to DH for pilots or FA's. A pilot can legally be scheduled to deadhead after being on duty for 16 hours. Actually a pilot can legally be scheduled for training, repo flights, mx hops, DH, ground school...whatever, as long as you can look back and see 24 hours of rest in the last 7 days and 9 hours in the last 24 before you accept assignment for a flight operated under part 121.

Thankfully most contracts impose stricter limits on the company which is what I believe the original poster was refering to.

Later

Everything you stated above is correct. One area to be cautious of, is that pt 91 mx DH ect cannot infringe upon the begining of "compensatory rest" following a reduced rest prior to the duty period in question. Several people have been burned by that one.

 

[igneousy2]

I realize that required rest does not apply to part 91 flights. I was asking how you came up with 9 hours of rest on a lookback after a 16 hour duty period, that would require 25 hours in a day.

I didn't say anything about 9 hours after a 16 hour duty period...I said you could deadhead after 16 hours on duty...a statement which is true (you can deadhead after 1,000,000 hours on duty). However, before you can accept an assignment for flight under part 121 you have to look back and find 9 hours(or 8) of rest in the past 24 hours and 24 hours of rest in the last 7 days. I didn't put the "9 hours" and the "16 hour duty period" together in the same sentence...you did.

Later

 

[ricfa78]

Dh is always considered duty time and we have a strict no rescheduling over 14 hours rule. Not even a minute. I've had to stay with a broken plane before to keep me "legal to start legal to finish" because deadheading me would have taken me to a reschueduled 14hrs and 2 minutes. Since the DH was not part of her original pairing she was not legal because she ended up being on duty almost 16 hours. Scheduling said they didn't see the delay in their computer and therefore she was legal. If there's anyone who works for AW and knows the flight number for your 17:45 flight PIT-EWR as it was in June, I would appreciate it. I know it was a weekday flight if that matters. Thanks! I'm still waiting on the FA to get back to me with the flight number so I can get the specifics. Again, thanks to all of those who have helped.

 

[igneousy2]

Dh is always considered duty time and we have a strict no rescheduling over 14 hours rule. Not even a minute. I've had to stay with a broken plane before to keep me "legal to start legal to finish" because deadheading me would have taken me to a reschueduled 14hrs and 2 minutes. Since the DH was not part of her original pairing she was not legal because she ended up being on duty almost 16 hours. Scheduling said they didn't see the delay in their computer and therefore she was legal. If there's anyone who works for AW and knows the flight number for your 17:45 flight PIT-EWR as it was in June, I would appreciate it. I know it was a weekday flight if that matters. Thanks! I'm still waiting on the FA to get back to me with the flight number so I can get the specifics. Again, thanks to all of those who have helped.

I already gave away my June OAG, however my Aug OAG should still be accurate as changes aren't that common.

US3918 - PIT-EWR Depart: 1745 Arrive: 1915
Operated by Air Wisconsin
It only operates Mon-Tues-Fri-Sun

Hope this helps.

Later