FAA punishment??

[59PA]

Where does the general counsel publish their interpretations? Are they available online anywhere?

 

[avbug]

Do what several of us do...use the same disc and database most of the FAA uses at their desks. ASA publishes Summit Publications Pro Flight Library. You can get one disc a year for about eighty bucks, or subscribe more frequently for updates, depending on how much you want to spend. It has everything on one disc, and makes searches fast. You can order the disc through sporties or any pilot supply place.

 

[A Squared]

Jafi,

Yeah, I know about emergency suspensions and revocations and I realize that's a whole different deal, and not used in the majority of enforcements.

As I sit in court watching the proceedings, it IS a trial.

Yes, it may appear to be a trial to you, but in reality, it is an appeal, officially and in the eyes of the law. Notice that in all of the references you and I have tossed back and forth in this thread, it is referred to as an appeal.

We never know the outcome until the Judge hands down his verdict.

Well, yeah, but that is true of any proceedings, right up to appeals before the supreme court. I'll bet if you ask the lawyers who you're there with, they will agree that the outcome you are waiting for is if the judge is going to "sustain" or "uphold" the FAA's order of sanction or if the order will be "overturned" These are the decisions rendered in an appeal; Sustain, or overturn (or variations thereof) A decision in a trial is guilty or innocent.

The FAA proposes a sanction (that is why a Letter of PROPOSED Certificate Action is sent)....

Right, I understand that a Notice of Proposed Certificate Action is sent to the airman. I think we are in agreement with that. However that is one of the early steps, this happens *before* the informal conference. After the informal conferenc, and before you appeal you are served with a Order of Sanction. That's a whole different document, and it's not a proposal at all at that point, if you chose not to appeal, that order suspends (or revokes) your certificate. If you chose to appeal, the suspension is postponed until the outcome of hte appeal. Here's a link to an FAA page which outlines what happens once you receive an NPCA:

http://www.faa.gov/region/aso/aso7/docs1/NOPCA.txt.

Here's another link to a page an attorney has put together describing the process. This is perhaps more illustrative as it lists the various steps in the order they occur. Or at least the steps the pilot sees, as I'm sure you're aware, there's more going on behind the scenes at the FAA involving the investigation.

http://www.wca-intl.org/FAAenf.htm

Notise that the steps, in order are:

1) Letter of Investigation
2) Notice of Proposed Certificate Action
3) Informal Conference
4) Order of Suspension
5) Appeal to NTSB ALJ
6) Appeal to the full board of the NTSB


Here's the first paragraph from an order from an NTSB appeal (to the full board, second stage of appeal) The respondent (pilot) wasn't happy with the ALJ's decision in the first stage of appeal.

The respondent has appealed from the oral initial decision of Administrative Law Judge Patrick G. Geraghty issued at the conclusion of an evidentiary hearing held on May 28, 1992.1 By that decision, the law judge affirmed an order of the Administrator suspending respondent's airline transport pilot certificate for 45 days on allegations of violations...

Notice how the italicized phrase is worded ... ....affirmed an order of the administrator...

the ALJ is affirming the administrator's order, not accepting his/her proposal on a sanction.

As to the appeal of an Investigation, I do not know of any legal process where you can appeal an Investigation. IMHO an Investigation is either ongoing or closed.

Agreed, I said that to make a rhetorical point, that you don't appeal an investigation, you appeal the results of the investigation (the order of sanction being the result)

I’ll have to ask legal the next time I talk to them.

Yeah, do that. I think you'll find that they'll tell you much what I've told you, give or take a few details. BTW, there is one misstatement which both Avbug and I have made in earlier posts, can you pick it out?

 

[avbug]

BTW, there is one misstatement which both Avbug and I have made in earlier posts, can you pick it out?

Is this anything like "Where's Waldo?" I'm pretty good at that.

 

[Tug Driver]

local fsdo called today. said they are forwarding report to regional office. bummmer. time for a lawyer. sadly I will have to work for a week to pay for one hour of his time.

 

[viper548]

bummer

 

[Sir Humpalot]

Keep your head up. This does not mean the end of your career. I know it is easier said than done but i also was in a fight with the FAA and i thought it was the end of my career. I am working right now and my employer knows about it.

If there is any advise you need, just send me a private message.

peace

 

[fdxmd11pilot]

you'll be fine, i know 2 guys both multi ifr rated that blasted through bravo w/o clearance. one is a airline fo about to make capt., the other a frieghtdog

Landover,

Please explain to me the difference between an "airline fo about to make capt" and a "freightdog". I guess I still don't get it. Is the airline guy the one whose about to lose his job, while the freightdog is moving up the seniority ladder at a fast rate, flying bigger and bigger jets while his "airline" buddy is going backwards. If that's what you meant, then I understand.

 

[aLear31pilot]

Tug driver,
I had a run in that maybe parallels yours years ago with about 800 hours. I came out of the clouds after a four hour flight, had a private pilot sitting in the pax seat flipping gadgets telling me I was there. Two identically laid out airports 5 miles away from eachother. One controlled, one not. Guess which one I was aiming for and which one I got??? Yep. Landed at the controlled one, with no communication. Ever get that heart just hit my pucker hole feeling as you pull off the runway, cursing that dang Citation driver for not making his calls on final, then reading the wrong name on the building.?? lol (now I can at least).
I got a call from the tower when I hit the f.b.o.. They asked for the quick run down and I was just HONEST For what it's worth in today's day and age. I filled out a report and popped it off the next a.m., few weeks later they called and gave me the options from the local fsdo. I was completely HONEST with them once again, I knew I messed up, and was willing to take my licks like a man and not just immediatly run to an attorney as many would tell you to do. They gave me the "this could happen and that could happen"speach and requested my logbook which I sent to them. Stll not having an attorney, they asked me to come in for a meeting, which I did. That afternoon we met and here's what they did. Had to take a course which they provided on ground marking and instrument approaches (?)(pretty much p.p. stuff), gave me a bunch of c.d.s. on related items(free ;-)), 1 hour recurrent training with an instructor, and told me that if I had another incident within the next 12 months, that i would have a 30 day suspension of my license. It stayed on my file for 2 years after date of incident then gone.
End of story. Never came up again. Nothing more than another story on here, but after I met them, I realized they weren't all standing in "grim reaper" outfits waiting to cook my goose, they actually just wanted to keep the sky as safe as I did, and didn't want to come to my smokin hole in the ground.
Best of luck to ya!

 

[atlcrashpad]

Keep us updated

Tug Driver,

Keep us posted on you situation. We are pulling for you. The net is a vast resource of info and there is always someone out there that can pull something for you. Good luck.

 

[landlover]

Landover,

Please explain to me the difference between an "airline fo about to make capt" and a "freightdog". I guess I still don't get it. Is the airline guy the one whose about to lose his job, while the freightdog is moving up the seniority ladder at a fast rate, flying bigger and bigger jets while his "airline" buddy is going backwards. If that's what you meant, then I understand.

well the class bravo occurance happened years ago, while one now is in ground school to become a captain, the other is now flying cargo.
two different pilots, both progressing.

 

[Tug Driver]

Thanks again to everyone for all your help.

I got a letter in the mail today from the FAA. It was a warning notice. It states that it will be on my record for 2 years.

I am greatful that this ordeal is over. Even though its on my record for 2 years, it could of been worse. Ill take it as a learning experience. I did not have to use the NASA report that I filed so I have that in my back pocket.

All in all, I think that I will take this as a sign from God...saying...

That I better finish my 4 year degree and not have all my eggs in the aviation basket.

Thats my interpretation anyway.
Thanks Again.
tug

 

[atlcrashpad]

FAA punishment

Tugdriver,

I'm glad it is over for you. Let it roll off of your back and put it behind you. Two years will be over before you know it. Good luck and all the best.

 

[501261]

Ya I wouldn't worry too much about it, just about everybody and there mother at some point busted an altitude, most of us just got lucky and nothing else became of it. So we can all relate.

Good idea though about getting a degree and not putting all the eggs in one basket.

 

[Metro752]

I stopped putting all my eggs in the flying basket because of this website, ANDDDDDDDDDDD flying basket and eggs don't mix, the eggs could easily fall out and break.


Glad to hear everything turned out AAA ok~!

 

[PAPA FOX!]

Thread ressurected!!

I read through this whole thread and was wondering if you do decide to go before an NTSB ALJ to appeal a violation, what typically is the cost range from start to finish when you involve an attorney. I'm guessing around 5K but really have no idea. If anyone can give me a ballpark figure I'd appreciate it very much.


Tug Driver,

Glad to see that it wasn't any worse for you. 2 yrs will be up before you know it and it will be over and done with. I am very happy you had a good attitude and took responsibility for your mistake.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Cost depends on the violation and the type of evidence needed to defend it. Need an expert witness, for example? Those fees may cost more that the attorney.

Your guess is as good as any in a vacuum.

 

[avbug]

I read through this whole thread and was wondering if you do decide to go before an NTSB ALJ to appeal a violation, what typically is the cost range from start to finish when you involve an attorney. I'm guessing around 5K but really have no idea. If anyone can give me a ballpark figure I'd appreciate it very much.

The cost to Bob Hoover was what, three million dollars? Six million? Anybody?

 

[Say Again Over]

Others will correct me if I am wrong but this equals NO incident and NO accident in my opinion, good for applications.

 

[Dumbledore]

Be careful for the next two years! Seriously!

I did not have to use the NASA report that I filed so I have that in my back pocket.

The reason you didn't have to use the ASRS report is because that's only necessary when the FAA decides to suspend your license. They didn't do that. They warned you.

Now, what they probably forgot to tell you in that warning is that while you're off the legal hook right now, if you do anything wrong in the next two years that results in a violation, they'll not only zap you for the new offense but they'll also try to get you for the one you're on "probation" for right now. At the very least they will use the fact that you were already under a warning notice to prove their case that you're some sort of miscreant in the second case. They'll claim that you have a history of failure to adhere to regulations.

For the next two years it will be doubly important to do things by the book. Don't let anyone push you into corners that are too sticky to get out of. Your POI probably knows, or will become aware, of your standing with the FAA right now. Depending on who that person is from an integrity standpoint you may have someone who sees a chink in the armor of a certificate holder (your employer) or an individual (you) that deserves a little more poking and prodding to see if it will fail. Keep in mind too that if anyone ramp checks you they will run your file and discover that you're under the gun and might try to push something along if they need to score some points to get a promotion or a transfer.

Not trying to rain on your parade but those are realities that are often not explained to folks in your position and you need to be aware of them.

Good job getting the fire put out. Now just keep it ouT!