FAA knee-jerk goes to far!

[trip]

Thanks to some GA & oversea operators that crashed their CL-65's and 600's we are now suppose to get out and run a hand over the wing (tactile feel) if the hold over time has expired on our CRJ-50's! AYFKM! Like this is goin to happen at the end of the runway in a line-up. Better order up some more type 4 girl$. Better yet, lets just park the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** things to be sure.

 

[Night_Flight]

If you do see any ice on the leading edge, don't try to lick it off!

(No heated wing comments please...)

-Night_Flight-

 

[RUhiring?]

Do you routinely takeoff if your HOT time has expired? We have always required an external check if it has.....unless the last external check was within 5 min of takeoff. I don't see the big deal here.

 

[filejw]

Have been doing that with some DC9's for 15 plus yrs...

 

[propjockey]

How do you get in and out of a DC-9 on the taxiway to do a tactile check? And can you even reach the wings without a ladder? Just curious...

I think the FAA needs to learn to separate cowboy GA and overseas carrier operations from domestic 121 operations. They are NOT the same.

 

[Captain Overs]

At least some of the operators have the airstairs. I would like to see how that would be acomplished if there were none.

 

[Weasil]

Our company already requires an external inspection within 5 mins of T/O if the HOT has expired on our CL65's. Nothing new.

 

[Wasted]

Does this check have to completed by a flightcrewmember or can designated ground personnel accomplish it?

 

[Erlanger]

I guess I'll be calling for type IV now all the time!

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Thanks to some GA & oversea operators that crashed their CL-65's and 600's we are now suppose to get out and run a hand over the wing (tactile feel) if the hold over time has expired on our CRJ-50's! AYFKM! Like this is goin to happen at the end of the runway in a line-up. Better order up some more type 4 girl$. Better yet, lets just park the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** things to be sure.

YEAH - WITH ALL MY REGIONAL JET EXPERIENCE I DONT NEED TO BE CHECKING FOR STINKING ICE!!!!!

**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** GA AND OVERSEAS OPERATORS!!

HOLDOVER TIMES??? HUH, JUST HYPED NUMBERS...

 

[atldc9]

Ex NTSB board member John Goglia (sp?) wrote an op-ed in AIN magazine this month about the NTSB position on this issue. According to him, the icing surface contamination problem is much greater on aircraft without slats. Duh. Seriously though, according to his piece if there are mx discrepancies on the upper surface of the CL-50 wing causing a surface roughness greater then 7 thousanths of inch, there are performance penalties. This is much stricter then on other aircraft. According to the article, if you consider even minute amounts of icing, up to a speck per square centimeter, you will have at least an equivalent amount of performance degradation. He went on to say in testing no one was able to see the degradation from inside until well into very dangerous territory. I couldn't find a link to the article, but it is in this months issue of AIN.

 

[J32driver]

Just snuggle up nice and close to that Triple in front of you, that will keep the ice of the wings!!!!

 

[FurloughedAgain]

The Fokker 28 and 100, I believe, had similar problems. I didnt fly it, but I seem to remember very strict deicing procedures for that aircraft at US Airways. Something to the effect of "aircraft must return for deicing if holdover time expires" (and precipitation obviously continues)

 

[exchexflyer]

.....

 

[filejw]

Propjockey,
Ref DC 9 .You return to the de ice pad and they do it..And as I recall this was for any A/C with out leading edge devices .Dc 9-10 ,F28 and F70/100.This started in 90 or 91.Too bad the info takes 15 yrs to pass along but thats the FAA for you.

 

[LJDRVR]

Thanks to some GA & oversea operators that crashed their CL-65's and 600's we are now suppose to get out and run a hand over the wing (tactile feel) if the hold over time has expired on our CRJ-50's! AYFKM!

How dare those inconsiderate jerks die! Maybe the FAA and the NTSB should come to you in the future and get your opinion on all matters pertaining to safe aircraft operations. Sarcasm aside, you should be happy the regulatory agencies are concerned enough to require new procedures that their experts feel may enhance safety.

Also, have you ever considered the wing design on your aircraft may have some serious deficiencies with regards to icing that the manufacturer is not addressing? The Classic 737 wing has some peculiarities in this area, and even after a dramatic crash that illustrated what operators had been trying to get Boeing to address for years, the company still fought it tooth and nail, going so far as to artificially tweak the mathematics use in the simulator testing after the Air Florida DCA crash. Not trying to be a conspiracy theorist here, I'm sure Bombardier is all over this. My point is, there's more here than meets the eye, and you should be happy about anything that enhances safety, even if it seems reactionary.

Lastly, your post implied subtly, as did other posts directly, that somehow US scheduled 121 operators are somehow the pinnacle or zenith of airmanship, and therefore shouldn't be subject to any regulatory or procedural changes brought about by post accident review foreign airlines or GA mishaps/accidents. Give me a break.

So, instead of turning this into some mud-slinging, "my stuff don't stink." diatribe, would anyone experienced in the type care to post what the latest is with the Challenger wing, and how these accidents may relate to that? I understand there were some weakness that were were addressed by non-standard certification requirements. (Stall warning system?) Correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm just curious about the history of the wing. (You could write a book on the Lear wing.)

 

[NuGuy]

Hey all,


Ice on a non-LED equiped AC is a big, big deal.

But a question...does the CRJ have wing heat that is operable on the ground or only in flight?

Nu

 

[MJG]

I have the solution....

No more flying in the Winter for anyone. Everyone will just have to drive from the month of December through February.

 

[Palerider957]

Hey all,


Ice on a non-LED equiped AC is a big, big deal.

But a question...does the CRJ have wing heat that is operable on the ground or only in flight?

Nu

Wing and cowl can be used on the ground, unless type II or IV has been applied, then wing is put on at brake release for the t/o roll. The 200 is NOT a plane in which to ignore ice....that's for da.mn sure.

 

[NuGuy]

Wing and cowl can be used on the ground, unless type II or IV has been applied, then wing is put on at brake release for the t/o roll. The 200 is NOT a plane in which to ignore ice....that's for da.mn sure.

Maybe they need to go to a DC-9-10 type of operation. On that AC, in icing conditions on the ground (defined at our shop as below 10C with visible moisture OR a temp/dewpoint spread of 3 C or less) you MUST operate the ground LE heat (in addition to engine heat).

Even if you are taxiing TO de-icing, you still have to run it, and you need to run it after as well. On top of that, you need a tactile inspection after de-ice.

As I said, its pretty serious. Review of the NTSB reports shows that there is plenty to be concerned about with hard winged aircraft.

Nu

 

[Weasil]

we are taught not to use the wing heat after type IV application as it will reduce effective HOT.