FAA Head Concerned With Cockpit Experience

[diggertwo]

http://www.pilotbug.com/?p=487

FAA Administrator Randy Babbitt, addressed ALPA’s annual Air Safety Forum and expressed concern for the quality of experience of captains in some of today’s airlines.


“There are some airlines out there with senior pilots who have three years under their belt, and, unlike back then — they are going right into jets, flying long days in some of the busiest airspace in the world.” Babbitt says in his speech, “I’m not saying that you’ve got to have 10 or 15 thousand hours before you’re worth your salt, but there is something to be said for having been flying around the system a few seasons.”


Babbitt continues and states that even these “seasoned” pilots must use their collective knowledge and mentor the rest of the pilot group to enhance safety. “This needs to become part of our professional DNA. If you’ve got experience and you’re not sharing it, you’re doing a disservice to our profession.”


He also acknowledged the problem of fatigue and that the FAA is in the process of addressing it. Flight-duty rules will be reconsidered after a study is completed by September 1st, where it will be submitted to the FAA. It will then be passed to the DOT and after 90 days, sent for public comment.

 

[labbats]

If Babbitt is so concerned about cockpit experience, then why is he already denying the need for an ATP at the regionals? Nice flip-flop Munson.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=124730

 

[Skywest Pylot]

If Babbitt is so concerned about cockpit experience, then why is he already denying the need for an ATP at the regionals? Nice flip-flop Munson.

Agreed. His concern for experien...s. I am preparing myself to be disappointed.

 

[Dornier 335]

If Babbitt is so concerned about cockpit experience, then why is he already denying the need for an ATP at the regionals? Nice flip-flop Munson.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=124730

maybe because it will create a huge shortage of pilots when things pick back up again. On the other side of the Atlantic you see legacy carriers employing 250 hour pilots.

 

[Metro752]

maybe because it will create a huge shortage of pilots when things pick back up again. On the other side of the Atlantic you see legacy carriers employing 250 hour pilots.

Those 250 hour pilots are not sitting next to 2-3000 hour guys normally. They are sitting next to senior guys, and check airmen.

 

[sstearns2]

If Babbitt is so concerned about cockpit experience, then why is he already denying the need for an ATP at the regionals? Nice flip-flop Munson.

[URL="http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=124730http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=124730"]http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=124730http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=124730[/URL]

What is requiring an ATP prior to employment really going to do? If you want a newhire to have 1500 hours then fine, but requiring them to have an ATP just means the newhires will have to go out to some rating factory somewhere, risk their lives in some scary light twin for a few hours and go a few thousand dollars deeper in the hole.

I got my ATP when I upgraded. All that was involved was checking off an extra box or two on my 8710 and spending a bunch of time studying for the ATP written test when I could (should?) have been studying our SOP, FOM, etc.

The ATP rating is superfluous considering that the only time you can exercise the privileges granted are after a multi-month training course specific to your airline and aircraft and passing multiple tests and checks that are well beyond what is required to simply obtain an ATP.

Scott

 

[ex j-41]

The ATP rating is superfluous considering that the only time you can exercise the privileges granted are after a multi-month training course specific to your airline and aircraft and passing multiple tests and checks that are well beyond what is required to simply obtain an ATP.

You won't say that if you have to pass the ride with a Fed at the local FSDO.

 

[labbats]

I can't tell why anyone would want an ATP at the regionals besides myself. Here is why I would want it.

- 1500 hours locked in. If the FAA asked for 1500TT instead of an ATP now, we all know that in a few years when there's not enough pilots applying at the regionals then there would be tremendous pressure on lowering that time. The ATP requirement would stop that in its tracks.

- I agree the ATP written is a joke. However, any more hurdles to getting the requirements for a job makes that job worth more. The only way to fix pilot pay is to require more hurdles to get there. Allowing 250 hour pilots the ability to fight for the same job as someone with an ATP will obviously reflect negatively on the amount paid for that job. Supply and demand will force the regionals to compete with 135 jobs that pay more.

- I've sat in the back of planes and jumpseated with pilots with less than 500 hours flying the plane. While saying everyone is unsafe would be lying, I can honestly say that most are unsafe. You don't have a big picture and your stick and rudder skills aren't honed. How many thunderstorms have you diverted around? How many times have you iced up? How good are your crosswind landings in 30kt gusts? By hiring low experience you are placing a huge burden on the captains and it's a detriment to safety. I'd be surprised if any of the low time regional hires could successfully divert at FL370 if there was severe weather all around and the captain has a heart attack. Do you really have the big picture to remember about icing, work the radar, know a good alternate and how to get there? Of course you don't.

- Why should someone need 1200TT to fly boxes at night, but it's ok to fly 50 people in all weather in a complex jet at 250? It's because they are relying on the captain to always be there and to fix everything. Don't we have enough to do without teaching crosswind landings with passengers in the back? Why is it called an ATP if you don't need one to fly for the airlines?

- In my opinion everyone at the regionals should be praying for the ATP minimum to pass. It's really the only way to put the focus on higher pay and safety. Without it the regionals will continue to hire unexperienced pilots for low pay. There's no incentive to raise the bar.

 

[Hawker800]

ATP will not pass nor will the 1500hr requirement. The reason is that schools such as Embry Riddle and Uni. North Dakota have more influence than you think. They are already working the FAA and legislatures and are fairly sure their grads are going to be protected. So a top professor explained to me just yesterday. Safety does not rule aviation. For the money, by the money, and nothing but the money.

 

[labbats]

Agreed.

The only thing I've learned in my years in this business is...

"Safety First! (unless it costs money)"

 

[Draginass]

I think Babbitt is an industry puppet. Like the current administration he says one thing, then does something else while lying to you that he actually did the thing he said. Very Orwellian.

 

[COOPERVANE]

I agree with labbats. We need upward pressure for our profession.

Email, Email, Email Your congressman.

If you don't, you get what you deserve.

 

[sstearns2]

Good point. It should be a FI rule that before you post on here about an issue like this you should have to post the letter your wrote to your congressman and senator on the issue. I'll be writing one tonight.

Scott

 

[Russ]

ATP will not pass nor will the 1500hr requirement. The reason is that schools such as Embry Riddle and Uni. North Dakota have more influence than you think.

They will survive. Survive the just the same way they did when it took far more than 1500 hours to get hired at a regional. I still have the info sheet passed out in initial GS over 10 years ago. The class average was 1864 hours.

The text attributed to him in the initial post seems spot on.

 

[difete]

I always say: "if it does come to work in uniform... dont trust them."

 

[rumorhasit]

There will always be someone out there who will fly a "jet" 1500 hrs or not. I know a mesa guy who would do anything to get outta his situation as a flight instructor including taking min pay to fly for a regional. The "fly for nearly free crowd" will be there regardless of hrs or ratings.

 

[buscap]

There will always be someone out there who will fly a "jet" 1500 hrs or not. I know a mesa guy who would do anything to get outta his situation as a flight instructor including taking min pay to fly for a regional. The "fly for nearly free crowd" will be there regardless of hrs or ratings.

So, just one question;

if you happen to have received civilian flight instruction........at your own expense.................at some point in your career......... just how much did you pay the instructor?

I take it from your post, you must have willingly shelled out at least 75 bucks an hour?

We wouldn't want that poor instructor to become one of those "will fly for free" guys.....?

Just wondering...........

 

[WMUSIGPI]

What is requiring an ATP prior to employment really going to do? If you want a newhire to have 1500 hours then fine, but requiring them to have an ATP just means the newhires will have to go out to some rating factory somewhere, risk their lives in some scary light twin for a few hours and go a few thousand dollars deeper in the hole.

I got my ATP when I upgraded. All that was involved was checking off an extra box or two on my 8710 and spending a bunch of time studying for the ATP written test when I could (should?) have been studying our SOP, FOM, etc.

The ATP rating is superfluous considering that the only time you can exercise the privileges granted are after a multi-month training course specific to your airline and aircraft and passing multiple tests and checks that are well beyond what is required to simply obtain an ATP.

Scott

Well here's what can happen. In order to go to the line you MUST have the ATP and Type rating (and now we can do away with the BS SIC type rating at the same time) Both pilots on line must have the ATP and (PIC level) type rating. The airlines are still free to hire someone with just the Commertial but they need to meet all the time requirements to take the ATP ride. What is so wrong with that?

 

[zasca]

I figure most company's SIC type rides are only short a couple takeoffs and taxiing from a full blown PIC type. The whole ratings/hours issue is a red herring. It is the depth and rigor of our training that is the REAL issue. 10,000 hours in a cessna and you will STILL have that "gee wiz" feeling, flying your first jet. And you will STILL be lacking the adequate experience to make you fully competent. This is why there are captains. HOWEVER, make sure your captains are competent at the very least, though....

 

[rumorhasit]

So, just one question;

if you happen to have received civilian flight instruction........at your own expense.................at some point in your career......... just how much did you pay the instructor?

I take it from your post, you must have willingly shelled out at least 75 bucks an hour?

We wouldn't want that poor instructor to become one of those "will fly for free" guys.....?

Just wondering...........

Actually it was about $50 an hr and the Instructor got like 10 of it, the rest went to the college flight program. I guess I don't really understand your point....
If your point was the the flight instructor doesn't work for free well according to your response to my orginal post you must have never been a flight instructor. If you had/have been a flight instructor you would know cfi's don't make hardly any money. If they did there would not be any pilots flying anything over 12500.

 

[dooork]

Actually it was about $50 an hr and the Instructor got like 10 of it, the rest went to the college flight program. I guess I don't really understand your point....
If your point was the the flight instructor doesn't work for free well according to your response to my orginal post you must have never been a flight instructor. If you had/have been a flight instructor you would know cfi's don't make hardly any money. If they did there would not be any pilots flying anything over 12500.

What dont you get!....Let me spell it out...He is saying you did not pay alot to your instructor...and you instruct for very little....then you bitch about someone flying right seat in a jet for little....get it?

 

[pilotyip]

SE ATP, the easy way

What is requiring an ATP prior to employment really going to do? If you want a newhire to have 1500 hours then fine, but requiring them to have an ATP just means the newhires will have to go out to some rating factory somewhere, risk their lives in some scary light twin for a few hours and go a few thousand dollars deeper in the hole.Scott

Do your ATP in a SE, much cheaper, much easier, and still an ATP. Doesn't even have to be a complex airplane. I did mine in a Grumman Tiger. Never take the written again.

 

[Papa Woody]

I agree something's wrong; a few notes from my regional airline logbook:

--A few years back as an FO (with about 5,000 hrs TT), I flew with a young new captain for her first trip out of IOE. As we rotated into the clouds, she confided in me that this was her first time in IMC as a PIC in any airplane!

--A new captain with less-than-100 hrs PIC and less-than 2,000 TT refused to land with flaps stuck at 30 on a 6,800ft runway until we had a "low-fuel" warning and I had to command "my airplane!" (<--that never made it into the report!)

--A low-time new captain, who obviously never learned how to use radar, deviated around every city between ATL and OKC on a VMC night flight! I said nothing, but occasionally sprayed Coke on the windshield from laughing as I diplomatically handled the ATC queries "deviate around WHAT?"

 

[rumorhasit]

What dont you get!....Let me spell it out...He is saying you did not pay alot to your instructor...and you instruct for very little....then you bitch about someone flying right seat in a jet for little....get it?

Maybe true (I actually make descent a per hr wage) but maybe you can't read very well. In my orginal post I was referring to the shiny jet attitude and used someone who used to be a Mesa pilot now a flight instructor who would learn LESS to fly for Mesa again. I was referring to an attitude that exist in some pilots mind.

 

[buzjob]

Do your ATP in a SE, much cheaper, much easier, and still an ATP. Doesn't even have to be a complex airplane. I did mine in a Grumman Tiger. Never take the written again.

That was my original plan. After 7 years at a FDX feeder I took my ATP ride at the caravan sim. Pain Free ATP, free of charge. However, it was a single engine ATP and in order to be insured for my current job, SIC in a Beechjet air ambulance, I needed a Multi ATP.

Sooo, I took the Multi ATP the old-fasioned way, I paid for it out of pocket. It was the smartest money I ever spent. I sat through a 1.7 hour scream session of a checkride that was the most horrfiying experience I ever had in an airplane. Including all the scary stuff during the previous 11 years I flew single pilot freight, banner tow, traffic survey, skydivers and pipeline patrol...

Point being earning an ATP can be a very good thing, it was for me. At the very least, requiring 1,500 hours will increase the odds that the airline applicant has some sort of real world flying experience. In between these two jobs I was at a regional for about 15 minutes. I certainly wouldn't have been comfortable being thrown into that environment with 250 hours. What the hell is the rush anyways?

 

[WMUSIGPI]

That was my original plan. After 7 years at a FDX feeder I took my ATP ride at the caravan sim. Pain Free ATP, free of charge. However, it was a single engine ATP and in order to be insured for my current job, SIC in a Beechjet air ambulance, I needed a Multi ATP.

Sooo, I took the Multi ATP the old-fasioned way, I paid for it out of pocket. It was the smartest money I ever spent. I sat through a 1.7 hour scream session of a checkride that was the most horrfiying experience I ever had in an airplane. Including all the scary stuff during the previous 11 years I flew single pilot freight, banner tow, traffic survey, skydivers and pipeline patrol...

Point being earning an ATP can be a very good thing, it was for me. At the very least, requiring 1,500 hours will increase the odds that the airline applicant has some sort of real world flying experience. In between these two jobs I was at a regional for about 15 minutes. I certainly wouldn't have been comfortable being thrown into that environment with 250 hours. What the hell is the rush anyways?

The rush? 2 things, first and biggest is seniority is everything. Skill unfortunately is basically meaningless compared to when you were hired. Second, well as bad as FO pay is at least it's consistent. Try making 15/ hr as a flight instructor and never knowing if you are even going to be able to get off the ground thanks to unpredictable weather/students. Good luck working with that kind of budget. As an FO I could budget for 22K... as a flight instructor I had no idea how much (ok really, little) I could make.

 

[Bako Cap]

Where was Babbitt when ALPA was selling off SCOPE to the lowest bidder encouraging low time (B-scale) hiring at the outsourcing carriers?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Where was Babbitt when ALPA was selling off SCOPE to the lowest bidder encouraging low time (B-scale) hiring at the outsourcing carriers?

He actually was partially responsible for this and is on record saying so...He did an interview with Air Inc. when he was ALPA President, and talks about this very issue. He was part of the Eastern MEC when this started, and admits that the mainline didn't want to fly these smaller airplanes...and he admits it was a mistake..

 

[buzjob]

The rush? 2 things, first and biggest is seniority is everything. Skill unfortunately is basically meaningless compared to when you were hired. Second, well as bad as FO pay is at least it's consistent. Try making 15/ hr as a flight instructor and never knowing if you are even going to be able to get off the ground thanks to unpredictable weather/students. Good luck working with that kind of budget. As an FO I could budget for 22K... as a flight instructor I had no idea how much (ok really, little) I could make.

You are exactly right. I was never a flight instructor, but the other jobs I did paid about the equivalent of ten bucks an hour. I had a family so I worked construction part time. You do what you gotta do. That being said, a 250 hour pilot has no business flying my family around. I have seen guys (and girls) who cannot land an airplane in a crosswind who were typed airline pilots.

Wtf?!?

I think they should require an ATP and type for both pilots, that would make the cockpit safer, upgrades cheaper and initial pay higher. So they have to charge more than 200 bucks a ticket? I don't think people would care if they knew it would increase the odds they would make it to their destination without dying.

Your seniority wouldn't be affected as everyone else you are competing with would have to build the time to qualify along with you.

I'd start a typed, ATP FO out at 35,000 and A CA at 50,000.
Big boy responsibility, big boy wage.

 

[AWACoff]

Wtf?!?



I'd start a typed, ATP FO out at 35,000 and A CA at 50,000.
Big boy responsibility, big boy wage.

WTF exactly!!! What is "big boy" about $50k for a captain???? I made $50k as a 2nd year FO at a regional 10 YEARS AGO!!! You people are the reason for the erosion of our wages. Unbelievable!