F4 Phantom

[bssthound]

CCDiscoB said The F-4 was a nightmare to maintain.

Man, were they ever. That jet drew blood from anyone who ever laid a hand on it. ALL of our maintainers and crew chiefs had their "Phantom bites." NOTHING was easy to get to and once you got to it was usually not very easy to fix. It was loved, though.

 

[riceowl63]

Just started reading the forum so this reply might be a little late...

I'm a volunteer at the Colling's Foundation at Ellington Field in Houston. We do have an F-4 that has been repainted to the condition of General Richie's at the end of Vietnam.

So.....what I know about getting one for private use. It ain't easy. The plane itself has to come from the boneyard so you have to be able to convince the AF to sell one to you. Then you have to convince the FAA that you have a legitimate reason for wanting it (not too easy, especially post 9/11). Next comes the huge task of returning it to flying condition since it's been sitting around for at least ten years. Not only that but there are a bunch of regs that must be followed. The navs and coms have to be converted to civilian use, plus something (I forget what) has to be modified in order to prevent supersonic flight, the radar has to be disconnected, the weapons systems disabled, etc. Then there is the standard maintenence. There is a dedicated group of volunteers that work every weekend to keep it maintained. It is a ton of work. You definitely need an old crew chief or someone w/ significant F-4 experience to keep it running regularly. As everyone else has mentioned the J-79s suck down fuel like no other so a platinum credit card is a must. I've met a couple at Ellington that own a pair of Mig-21s (that's right, a couple....they have a 'his' and 'her' jet) and they are only able to get them up about twice a year with the fuel and maintenence costs. Those don't burn gas at near the same rate so the F-4 bill would be HUGE! Then, you have to get someone from Martin-Baker to come down every so often to check on the ejection seats. The list goes on and on....and on...and on.

But, it is defintely one of the most beatiful and awesome planes I've ever seen and is very formidable to stand next to. If you have one of those trees that grow money that my dad said didn't exist then I guess it might work if you could get past the FAA.

Football season is on for me now so there isn't much time for me to go volunteer. However, if anyone has any specific questions about this let me know 'cause I think I'll be there next week. Oh yeah....the hydraulic system is a nightmare too.

Seems to me that if you want the adrenaline of afterburners an old Mig might be the way to go. I hear they cost somewhere in the neighborhood of 2-3 hundred thousand (not sure about that, just hangar gossip). Not cheap, but better.

 

[CCDiscoB]

Not cheap, but better

You mean...not better, but cheaper

 

[riceowl63]

Definitely didn't mean to imply the Mig-21 was 'better' than the F-4. I was only talking about paying for everything. You got it right CCDiscoB.

 

[Skaz]

you guys sure are a cruel bunch of sadists, there goes my dreamplane, in a graveyard spiral , trailing smoke & bits and pieces falling off it....

sigh, ok wait....what about a....P51 ! or a , a ....

P40, now were talking.....

no wait, what about a Spitfire ! yeah baby !

even better, arent there a lot of ex-SAAF F86 Sabres flying / lyuing around in the States?

 

[banned username 2]

sigh, ok wait....what about a....P51 ! or a , a ....

Here is a P-51 you can afford... today!

P-51D

 

[Skaz]

gee...thanks

 

[furloboy]

In a knife fight, I'd take the MIG-21 over the Phantom any day. At range--if the radar worked (big if)--I'd take the Phantom.

Maintainability? You'd generate four sorties with the MIG for every one you did with the Phantom.

It's really cool to be able to say "I flew the Phantom," but I bless the day the Hornet came to the Corps.

 

[JimNtexas]

In a knife fight, I'd take the MIG-21 over the Phantom any day. At range--if the radar worked (big if)--I'd take the Phantom.

Maintainability? You'd generate four sorties with the MIG for every one you did with the Phantom.

It's really cool to be able to say "I flew the Phantom," but I bless the day the Hornet came to the Corps.

The F-4E was designed and built to out-maneuver, out shoot, and defeat the Mig-21, and could do so reliability.

As far as reliability, I participated in an exercise at Kunsan AB where about 100 Phantoms flew 1000 sorties in 24 hours, flowing through specially built revetments.

And of course the Phantom is an offensive weapon, while the short legged little Mig can't venture more than 100 miles or so from its base. You can't project power with a Mig-21.

The Mig-21 has a slight advantage if you have a good GCI network and your mission is to orbit over your home airport and wait for an attack. Even in a knife fight, the Mig-21 is at best even with an F-4E. For any other purpose, it is almost worthless.

I'd rather have an F-18 also, but the latter versions of the F-4 were superior in almost all respects to the Mig-21.

 

[furloboy]

JimNTexas,

No, there is/was no version of the F-4, slatted or not, that will outmaneuver the MIG-21. If you'll remember the energy/maneuver diagrams, it just ain't gonna happen. If you flew a MIG-21 in a close-in fight against yourself in a Phantom it should be a friggin' spank-o-rama (to the MIG's advantage).

Now, if you give the Phantom forward-quarter weapons and leave the MIG with those crappy ol' AA-2s, sure the Phantom should win. But in a straight out gunfight with pilots of equal skills, the Phantom is going to lose. No questions.

Same goes for a visual fight with forward quarter heaters on both platforms.

Don't get me wrong, there is no bigger patriot than myself, but I'll give credit to the bad guys where it's due.

Regards,
Furloboy

 

[JimNtexas]

No, there is/was no version of the F-4, slatted or not, that will outmaneuver the MIG-21. If you'll remember the energy/maneuver diagrams, it just ain't gonna happen. If you flew a MIG-21 in a close-in fight against yourself in a Phantom it should be a friggin' spank-o-rama (to the MIG's advantage).

That is true for hard wing F-4 models, but incorrect for the F-4E. Leading edge slats give the F-4E similar turn performance, and the F-4 enjoys a substantial power advantage.

In the Mig's very best case it is a dead even fight with an F-4E, and the Mig has no margin to make the slightest mistake.

The Mig-21s main advantage is smaller size.

And of course the Mig better be fighting right over his home airport, because otherwise he is bingo.

 

[furloboy]

Jim,

I know about the slatted Phantom. I flew it (F-4S) and whaled on my share of USAF F-4Es with it.

I loved the Phantom--it was a great ship. And if you could fly a good rate fight against the Mig-21 (and maintain sight), and then pop him in the face with a heater or AIM-7, then you stood a decent chance. But if you slowed down and tried to take him in a radius fight (close knife fight) he would eat you alive (assuming a competent pilot).

I'd say it was the other way around--the F-4 dude needed to be very, very, careful or he'd get ate up. Slow down and die. MIG-21--particularly the bis--had pretty decent thrust-to-weight. Equal to F-4 or better.

Yeah, the MIG-21 has no legs. But I never bragged about the F-4's range either.

Again, given a Full Mission Capable F-4 against a classic MIG-21, I'd take the Phantom. But not in a close-in dogfight. Got to use your brains and fight your best fight.

Regards,
Furloboy

 

[Skaz]

I recall Col Randy Cunningham had a ding-dong battle with a Mig in Vietnam. Didnt he blast in between a bunch of Migs, shot down a handfull and then had a helluva scrap with the North's Mig Ace at the time?

Got the documentary somewhere, will go look it up....

 

[SuperDavi8ator]

Again, given a Full Mission Capable F-4 against a classic MIG-21, I'd take the Phantom. But not in a close-in dogfight. Got to use your brains and fight your best fight.

Jim I'm going to have to agree with furloughboy on this one, but it is all really a question of Tactics.

I loved the Rhino and knew her capabilities well. As far as a close in fight, it was never going to happen. Again, Tactics. We would NEVER turn with a Mig-21,F-5,F-16, or Scooter, ect... Tactics were to aquire BVR, Take a face shot, blow through the merge and beat feat home.

So the fact that we couldn't turn with a Mig really didn't matter, our radar and all aspect weapons were much more capable. Besides, our mission was Iron, Pave-Tac, GBU or Maverick. We left the Migs to the Rhodan anyway.


S.D.

 

[JimNtexas]

We can't continue this much farther unless we had EM diagrams for the Mig and F-4, which still are probably classified.

Of course an F-4 doesn't want to try go into a phone booth with a Mig. That makes no sense. But if it happens, the F-4 has much more of a chance than is commonly thought.

I'm not a big air-to-air guy, but I did spend some time in the 90TFS at Clark, which was an air-to-air squadron. We were colocated with an F-5 agressor squardon. We had real ACM experts who had tremndous experience with various Mig models.

I base my comments on that expereince. YMMV