F/O's low pay

[pilotyip]

From "Fate is the Hunter" by Ernest K. Gann written in 1961 referring to his early days at American Airlines in 1938. "We did not begin to fly because we might make more money with an airplane than we might if otherwise employed. Many of us are barely able to afford shelter and three meals a day; indeed some are existing on borrowed money, or have sold their personal possessions in order to manage through this training period. Yet we should each have been completely uninterested if the company had offered other employment". Goes to show this is not something new to the industry.

 

[xjcaptain]

One of my favorite books of all time. Re-read it nearly once a year. Shows how little things change over the years.

 

[lowoilpress]

Ernie Gann

Fate is the Hunter; Faith is what we seek.

Looking forward to reading The High and the Mighty.

 

[NuGuy]

He also said that those who openly defy the "numbers" might as well become hyenias.

NU

 

[Goose Egg]

"...Yet we should each have been completely uninterested if the company had offered other employment". Goes to show this is not something new to the industry.

I should hope not. If we don't have to work for it, then what the hell is it worth anyway?

-Goose

 

[FN FAL]

He also said that those who openly defy the "numbers" might as well become hyenias.

NU

Does he say if it's ok to be a hyenia that doesn't defy the "numbers"?

 

[LearLove]

He also said that those who openly defy the "numbers" might as well become hyenias.

NU

Glad I see someone else picked up on this. Weather it works out on or not I don't know but we all need to have some kind of "guideline" (for lack of a better word) to go by in this bizz and I've kept that in my pocket. One of the reasons i've stuck it out with U instead of jumping ship. Only time will tell.

 

[91100 100 set]

I concur, one of the best aviation books ever written. Anybody ever read Gann's autobiography? I believe it was called "Hostage to Fortune". I'm sure you could find it on the internet somewhere, but outside of that, the only place I've ever seen it is the gift shop at Old Rhinebeck a few years back. It's a good book, not as good as Fate is the Hunter, but it talks about all the other things he did in his life aside from flying. So if you're interested in learning more about the author, check it out, he did alot of interesting things in his life.

Lear, I hope you don't think I'm a hyena for the move I made! After all, I gave up my 5 years to start practically all over.

 

[bafanguy]

From "Fate is the Hunter" by Ernest K. Gann written in 1961 referring to his early days at American Airlines in 1938. "We did not begin to fly because we might make more money with an airplane than we might if otherwise employed. Many of us are barely able to afford shelter and three meals a day; indeed some are existing on borrowed money, or have sold their personal possessions in order to manage through this training period. Yet we should each have been completely uninterested if the company had offered other employment". Goes to show this is not something new to the industry.

Yip,

The first question that comes to my mind after reading this quote is: Was Gann willing to endure the circumstances described at American because there was a big-enough carrot on the end of the stick ( the American stick ) to make a certain long term reward worth the short-term sacrifice ?

No sob story on my part, but our first year pay at Delta was $600/mo in '73. The guys with families had a tough go in that year. But...the long term certainty was worth the short-term sacrifice. Would any of us have passed up at job at Delta because the first year pay was bad ? No.....

I'm not sure some poor kid working for some scummy freight outfit at food stamp wages can enjoy the same expectation and feel the sacrifice has indentifiable benefits.

That job is a steppingstone...agreed. But, the way one now views the sacrifice will certainly be prompted by different circumstances from that of Gann.

As an aside: A few years ago in recurrent, Gann's name came up in casual conversation and a young guy asked if he flew for Delta. I was, and still am, horrified by that question.

 

[pilotyip]

Bafan, you are right about the outcome of Gann's low pay, he even stated that is his book as why he was doing it. My post was just to show the the talk about low pay for F/O's was nothing new. I see you flew the DC-3 also and expereinced the adventure

 

[bafanguy]

Yip,


I hear ya. The DC3 experience was all too brief..."lost" describes me; "patient" describes the captains.

 

[NuGuy]

As very interesting aside to his book: Of all the people he mentioned in FitH, look how many were dead by the end.


Nu

 

[FurloughedAgain]

I adored Fate is the Hunter until I read "Moondog's Academy of the Air and other Aviation Disasters"

Every time I start to feel down-in-the-dumps about MY career, I read that book and everything seems pretty darned OK...

I have to admit though that I forgot Gann's quote: "those who openly defy the "numbers" might as well become hyenias."

As one who has attempted to defy the numbers time and time again, I can honestly say that there is truth to that statement. You simply can't argue with the fates. Frustrating isn't it?

 

[urflyingme?!]

What does "The Numbers" mean?

 

[pilotyip]

Senority numbers

 

[urflyingme?!]

OK, so he's talking about people upgrading out of order/ scab-bing?

 

[JB74]

urflyingme, grab a copy off amazon. It is a great book. Click on the used link, they are around $4-$5 plus shipping.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671636030/qid=1110160442/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-7234437-7044041

 

[NuGuy]

OK, so he's talking about people upgrading out of order/ scab-bing?

You really ought to read the book...he is a million times more eloquent than any of us.

But to answer your question: No. What he was saying is that in this industry, if you try to hop around looking for the next best thing, you are very often disappointed, and you do yourself more harm than good.

For example: You are sitting at airline "a" making ok money, but upgrade seems a bit long. You hear that airline "b" is upgrading faster, even taking into account starting all over. So you jump over there, and as soon as you do, airline "b" stops its big growth for one reason or another, and if you had stayed at "a", you would have been better off and saved yourself a bunch of hassle.

In other words, promises mean d!ck in this business. Don't believe it until your name is in the logbook and the gear is in the well.

Nu

 

[urflyingme?!]

Aha "A bird in the hand..." and so on.
This book is definately on the buy list.

 

[Kawasumi_Kichou]

Wow. Didn't realize Delta paid like that in 1973. That's about what my base pay was as a TV cameraman right out of high school in 1973 (TV is another industry where starting wages aren't much). But after a year at that local non-union station I was able to join the union and my hourly pay for union work just about doubled.

F/O pay at Scenic in 1992 was $900/month, $1100/month if you had an ATP. Starting pay for captains was $23,000/year on the good ol' DHC-6-300/barf bag bomber/kool aid bomber/"Vistaliner".

Yeah, FotH is a great book. "The High and the Mighty" and "The Left Seat" are favorites of mine too. BTW the rights to the film version of "The High and the Mighty" have been negotiated and currently the film is undergoing restoration. A DVD release is in the works, finally after all these years.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

banfanguy,

Your $600/mth is equal to about $2550/mth today. It just so happen to equal my first year pay at another Major in 1990 of $1800/mth.


check out:
http://woodrow.mpls.frb.fed.us/Research/data/us/calc/index.cfm

 

[HowlinMadMurdoc]

Fate is a must read for all professional pilots. Like another poster wrote, Gann wrote far more eloquently about being a line pilot than anyone else, at least IMHO. I also have his autobiography "Hostage to Fortune" and he talked about the low airline pay and the effects on his family. Another good read. I'd like to read "The High and the Mighty". Just need to hunt down that book.

Did anyone else get the impression that the pilot Gann wrote about at the end of the book, who disappeared from his dingy in HNL harbor, actually committed suicide? This was the pilot who retired and couldn't ends meet so came back to aviation as an F/O.

Just wondering...

HMM

 

[LearLove]

I concur, one of the best aviation books ever written. Anybody ever read Gann's autobiography? I believe it was called "Hostage to Fortune". I'm sure you could find it on the internet somewhere, but outside of that, the only place I've ever seen it is the gift shop at Old Rhinebeck a few years back. It's a good book, not as good as Fate is the Hunter, but it talks about all the other things he did in his life aside from flying. So if you're interested in learning more about the author, check it out, he did alot of interesting things in his life.

Lear, I hope you don't think I'm a hyena for the move I made! After all, I gave up my 5 years to start practically all over.

Yes his Autobio is Hostage to Fortune and is back in print. Many of his old books you can find on ebay and amazon, my Gann collection includes:

Fate is the Hunter
Band Of Brothers
The Black Watch
Hostage to Fortune
Blaze of Noon
In the Company of Eagles
The Aviator
The High and The Mighty
Flying Circus
Twilight for the Gods
Gentleman of Adventure
Island in the Sky
Soldier of Fortune

I first read Fate is the Hunter in college and have collected his book for the past 8 years. I estimate I spent an average of $10 on each book thru ebay,amazon and used book stores.

Fate is the Hunter, Hostage to Fortune and Flying Circus should be required reading for any who makes a living flying.

 

[urflyingme?!]

Not to hijack Yip's thread, but does anyone have any books to reccommend?

 

[FN FAL]

Not to hijack Yip's thread, but does anyone have any books to reccommend?

Yea..."No Second Place Winner"...by Bill Jordan. He's kind of like law enforcement's Gann.

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Best aviation book ever. I love it.

 

[Ty Webb]

Ernest Gann wrote some outstanding books, and I, too, would highly recommend his autobiography " A Hostage to Fortune ".

I would also point out that he was hired by AAL without even an Instrument rating, and upgraded at about 14 months, so comparing his pay situation as a newhire (seniority numer approximately 250) and the situation of today's pilots is not very accurate, unless it is one of us at an LCC who can upgrade inside of two years time.

 

[bafanguy]

banfanguy,

Your $600/mth is equal to about $2550/mth today. It just so happen to equal my first year pay at another Major in 1990 of $1800/mth.


check out:
http://woodrow.mpls.frb.fed.us/Research/data/us/calc/index.cfm

C150,

Yes, I agree. I was just commenting on how hard it was for a guy with a wife and a couple of kids to get by on $600...as it would be today on $2550...same idea.

All I had was a 1967 VW...and everything I owned would fit in it.

Can't say for sure, but I think DL's newhire pay was improved in recent years.

$1800 is about what some regionals are paying newhires today.