F-22 Article in Aviation Week

[mzaharis]

Thought you folks might find this interesting. There are a few more articles available if you have a subscription, but this one doesn't require a subscription. It describes the F-22 as a VERY impressive piece of hardware, a real game-changer.

Raptor Scores in Alaskan Exercise
http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_awst_story.jsp?id=news/aw010807p1.xml

 

[Newpilot2b]

Good read.
Sometimes its just not fair!

 

[MarineGrunt]

Oh yeah? Just wait til they go up against the Indian Air Force....!

 

[mzaharis]

Oh yeah? Just wait til they go up against the Indian Air Force....!

How are they going to change the "rules of engagement" to make Cope India an even fight ths time - ground them? :beer:

 

[mzaharis]

Good read.
Sometimes its just not fair!

Mind you, I don't fly these things, so my opinion doesn't matter, but there's an "Air and Space Smithsonian" article which describes going to combat in an F-22 as being comparable to "clubbing baby seals" (quote of an F-22 pilot). Sometimes, an unfair fight is just what's needed, and I'm glad it's available to (too few of) our pilots!

I particularly like this line, indicating its datalink capabilities:

"However, these messages are less and less verbal. "When you watch [tapes of the Alaska] exercise, it's fairly spooky," says Gen. Ronald Keys, chief of Air Combat Command. "There's hardly a word spoken among Raptor pilots." That silence also previews some of the fighter's possible future capabilities."

 

[JimNtexas]

It's a good plane, but we are buying too many of them.

 

[Deuce130]

It's a good plane, but we are buying too many of them.

I don't think we're buying enough. As any good airlift general will tell you, it ain't about lift capability, it's about tails on the ramp. What good is a C-17 that can carry as much as 3 C-130's when you have 3 small loads that have to go to three different places? The same deal with fighters. So what if 1 F-22 can do the work of a 4-Ship of Eagles? That only works if all the fighting is in the same place at the same time. Sure would be nice of the Chinese AF to only fly when we happen to have our Raptor sorties scheduled, but I don't think they'll cooperate. If we truly buy into the superiority argument of the F-22 (which I do) then you have to have enough of them to cover the entire vul period - each and every vul period. You only get that capability with enough tails on the ramp to replace our current tails. Unless of course the new doctrine will be to fly 2-ships instead of 4-ships.

 

[Scrapdog]

It's a good plane, but we are buying too many of them.

Jim - I know you're totally against the F-22 from your prior posts and I will not try to change your point of view. I will just point out a few experiences I've had with the Raptor personally.

In my illustrious AF career (I'm saying that in good humor), I've provided "red air" to the F-22 around 7-8 times...if I remember right (maybe more). A few times in the F-15, and a few in the F-16. I've provided red air to the F-22's at Nellis for the guys flying it in the OT phase, red air to the fellas flying it at the schoolhouse at Tyndall, and red air for the guys flying it operationally at Langley. I've fought them during DCA, opposed SAT, during ACM, and during BFM. When the F-22 is on its game and is fully operational, the words to describe its capability are beyond amazing. On a broad level, each F-22 can target multiple (and I mean multiple) bandito's flying full up against them with the bandit's having little to no SA on where the F-22 is. With its supercruise and high altitude capes - the jet is dropping JDAM's at ridiculous ranges. And close in for BFM...well the nose authority and alpha it can generate is just gross. No 4th generation threat right now can hold a candle to it when you've got a competent pilot behind the controls of a full up Raptor.

They can operate in 2 ships and have the same - if not more - capability and SA than a 4 or 8 ship of F-15's. The only issue at that point becomes the F-22's gas and WRM considerations.

If you look at pure costs...as Deuce said...we need more F-22's, not less. A new F-22 is extremely expensive, but an 8 ship of F-15's is just as costly - if not more in manpower due to the increasing maintenance perspective. Our current fleet of F-15's and F-16's is getting older by the day, and now is just a good a time as any at funding a new stealthy fighter...especially if you look at the increasing threats that China and N. Korea have with their double digit SAM's and growing air force's thanks to the Russian hooligans willing to sell to anyone with enough money. Remember Jim, you need to look at the threats in the next 15-20 years just as much as the ones right in front of your nose.

I know you served your country in the F-111 as a Nav and for that I thank you. But don't you think your outlook on air superiority is a bit myopic based on your background? That is not a flame, please don't take it that way - just a simple question. If you actually saw the capes of the F-22 firsthand, I'd take a bet anyday that you'd change your tune within seconds.

 

[dtfl]

Jim - I know you're totally against the F-22 from your prior posts and I will not try to change your point of view. I will just point out a few experiences I've had with the Raptor personally.

In my illustrious AF career (I'm saying that in good humor), I've provided "red air" to the F-22 around 7-8 times...if I remember right (maybe more). A few times in the F-15, and a few in the F-16. I've provided red air to the F-22's at Nellis for the guys flying it in the OT phase, red air to the fellas flying it at the schoolhouse at Tyndall, and red air for the guys flying it operationally at Langley. I've fought them during DCA, opposed SAT, during ACM, and during BFM. When the F-22 is on its game and is fully operational, the words to describe its capability are beyond amazing. On a broad level, each F-22 can target multiple (and I mean multiple) bandito's flying full up against them with the bandit's having little to no SA on where the F-22 is. With its supercruise and high altitude capes - the jet is dropping JDAM's at ridiculous ranges. And close in for BFM...well the nose authority and alpha it can generate is just gross. No 4th generation threat right now can hold a candle to it when you've got a competent pilot behind the controls of a full up Raptor.

They can operate in 2 ships and have the same - if not more - capability and SA than a 4 or 8 ship of F-15's. The only issue at that point becomes the F-22's gas and WRM considerations.

If you look at pure costs...as Deuce said...we need more F-22's, not less. A new F-22 is extremely expensive, but an 8 ship of F-15's is just as costly - if not more in manpower due to the increasing maintenance perspective. Our current fleet of F-15's and F-16's is getting older by the day, and now is just a good a time as any at funding a new stealthy fighter...especially if you look at the increasing threats that China and N. Korea have with their double digit SAM's and growing air force's thanks to the Russian hooligans willing to sell to anyone with enough money. Remember Jim, you need to look at the threats in the next 15-20 years just as much as the ones right in front of your nose.

I know you served your country in the F-111 as a Nav and for that I thank you. But don't you think your outlook on air superiority is a bit myopic based on your background? That is not a flame, please don't take it that way - just a simple question. If you actually saw the capes of the F-22 firsthand, I'd take a bet anyday that you'd change your tune within seconds.

Honest question - if the jet wasn't on it's game and had a pilot on an off day (we all get them) - how would it fare? Reason I ask is F4 buds told me how they beat F15s in the old days - but Im not sure this is the same type of contest.
And on another note - when the F35 becomes operational allows the F22 to perform OCA/DCA only (I am assuming that will happen) - wil that help with the lower #s we are buying?

 

[Scrapdog]

Honest question - if the jet wasn't on it's game and had a pilot on an off day (we all get them) - how would it fare? Reason I ask is F4 buds told me how they beat F15s in the old days - but Im not sure this is the same type of contest.
And on another note - when the F35 becomes operational allows the F22 to perform OCA/DCA only (I am assuming that will happen) - wil that help with the lower #s we are buying?

Well...I guess I'll give you the famous weapons school answer - it depends! LOL Honestly, I'm not sure how it would do if both the jet and the pilot were off on their A games because there are so many variables with each mission being so dynamic. I did fly a few sorties against a guy going through IPUG (in the F22 at Nellis) and he didn't have his A game on and busted the ride. I don't really recall if we got in untargeted on that one...however we may have.

I don't think the F4 vs. F15 comparison is quite fair. The F22 is NOT a conventional fighter - the whole stealth capability adds another entire dimension to BVR tactics and the way it employs which none of our current front line fighters posses (besides the Raptor of course).

When the F-35 comes out, I do think we'll probably see a shift of the F22 doing more OCA/DCA type scenarios...however IMHO it will still keep its role in doing TST as well. It has that logic built into its software already - and with the new SDB coming on line, the Raptor will pack quite a punch with big time BVR air-air capes as well as extremely long range precision bombing abilities.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Well...I guess I'll give you the famous weapons school answer - it depends! LOL Honestly, I'm not sure how it would do if both the jet and the pilot were off on their A games because there are so many variables with each mission being so dynamic. I did fly a few sorties against a guy going through IPUG (in the F22 at Nellis) and he didn't have his A game on and busted the ride. I don't really recall if we got in untargeted on that one...however we may have.

I don't think the F4 vs. F15 comparison is quite fair. The F22 is NOT a conventional fighter - the whole stealth capability adds another entire dimension to BVR tactics and the way it employs which none of our current front line fighters posses (besides the Raptor of course).

When the F-35 comes out, I do think we'll probably see a shift of the F22 doing more OCA/DCA type scenarios...however IMHO it will still keep its role in doing TST as well. It has that logic built into its software already - and with the new SDB coming on line, the Raptor will pack quite a punch with big time BVR air-air capes as well as extremely long range precision bombing abilities.

"Pack quite a punch" and SDB don't belong in the same sentence. The SDB certainly has its place, but don't mischaracterize it. It's a little bomb developed so that the F-22 can carry a couple of bombs and justify the /A tacked onto the F-22's model designator.

 

[Scrapdog]

"Pack quite a punch" and SDB don't belong in the same sentence. The SDB certainly has its place, but don't mischaracterize it. It's a little bomb developed so that the F-22 can carry a couple of bombs and justify the /A tacked onto the F-22's model designator.

Dave - as usual, you don't have a friggin clue. With the F22, the SDB will be able to be dropped much further than any AF or Navy fighter currently on the books. And the Raptor will be able to carry quite a few of them. Not only does the little guy pack quite a punch - it minimizes the collateral damage substantially vs. the 500, 1000, & 2000 pounders we've currently got. (But you already know all this I'm sure since you're such an expert on Global Strike Capes). Just in case you forgot in your brilliance, here's part of an article from globalsecurity.org:

The Small Diameter Bomb (SDB) is half the weight of the smallest bomb the Air Force uses today, the 500-pound Mark 82. It uses a 250 pound-class warhead that has demonstrated penetration of more than 6 feet of reinforced concrete. Utilizing a smaller weapon improves aircraft load-out and mission effectiveness. The size and accuracy of small diameter bombs allows aircraft to carry more munitions to more targets and strike them more effectively with less collateral damage. Because of its capabilities, the Small Diameter Bomb system is an important element of the Air Force's Global Strike Task Force.

The Small Smart Bomb is a 250 pound weapon that has the same penetration capabilities as a 2000lb BLU-109, but with only 50 pounds of explosive. The 250 pound-class warhead that has demonstrated penetration of more than 6 feet of reinforced concrete. With the INS/GPS guidance in conjunction with differential GPS (using all 12 channel receivers, instead of only 5) corrections provided by GPS SPO Accuracy Improvement Initiative (AII) and improved Target Location Error (TLE), it can achieve a 5-8m CEP. The munition, with a smart fuze, has been extensively tested against multi-layered targets by Wright Laboratory under the Hard Target Ordnance Program and Miniature Munitions Technology Program. The length to diameter ratio and nose shape are designed to optimize penetration for a 50lb charge. This weapon is also a potential payload for standoff carrier vehicles such as Tomahawk, JSOW, JASSM, Conventional ICBM, etc.

Dave - I think all your BS about carrier landings suits you better than bellying up to the bar on a subject you obviously have absolutely no SA about.

 

[SIG600]

Dave - I think all your BS about carrier landings suits you better than bellying up to the bar on a subject you obviously have absolutely no SA about.

He dosen't know anything about landing on the boat either... don't encourage him.

 

[Huggyu2]

New F-16 with all the trimmings: ~$50M
F-22: $230M
Scrapdogs rebuttal on SDB's: priceless.

 

[414Flyer]

Dave - as usual, you don't have a friggin clue. With the F22, the SDB will be able to be dropped much further than any AF or Navy fighter currently on the books. And the Raptor will be able to carry quite a few of them. Not only does the little guy pack quite a punch - it minimizes the collateral damage substantially vs. the 500, 1000, & 2000 pounders we've currently got. (But you already know all this I'm sure since you're such an expert on Global Strike Capes). Just in case you forgot in your brilliance, here's part of an article from globalsecurity.org:

The Small Diameter Bomb (SDB) is half the weight of the smallest bomb the Air Force uses today, the 500-pound Mark 82. It uses a 250 pound-class warhead that has demonstrated penetration of more than 6 feet of reinforced concrete. Utilizing a smaller weapon improves aircraft load-out and mission effectiveness. The size and accuracy of small diameter bombs allows aircraft to carry more munitions to more targets and strike them more effectively with less collateral damage. Because of its capabilities, the Small Diameter Bomb system is an important element of the Air Force's Global Strike Task Force.

The Small Smart Bomb is a 250 pound weapon that has the same penetration capabilities as a 2000lb BLU-109, but with only 50 pounds of explosive. The 250 pound-class warhead that has demonstrated penetration of more than 6 feet of reinforced concrete. With the INS/GPS guidance in conjunction with differential GPS (using all 12 channel receivers, instead of only 5) corrections provided by GPS SPO Accuracy Improvement Initiative (AII) and improved Target Location Error (TLE), it can achieve a 5-8m CEP. The munition, with a smart fuze, has been extensively tested against multi-layered targets by Wright Laboratory under the Hard Target Ordnance Program and Miniature Munitions Technology Program. The length to diameter ratio and nose shape are designed to optimize penetration for a 50lb charge. This weapon is also a potential payload for standoff carrier vehicles such as Tomahawk, JSOW, JASSM, Conventional ICBM, etc.

Dave - I think all your BS about carrier landings suits you better than bellying up to the bar on a subject you obviously have absolutely no SA about.

Also, its not the F/A-22, its the F-22. The A thing was short lived.