F-16: AIM-120 v's AIM-9

[Danderandan]

Why is it that more and more often I see F-16’s with AIM-120s on the wing tips and AIM-9’s on the next pylons inboard. What’s the reason for this because my logic would dictate that the lighter missile on the outer tips would mean a quicker rate of role (by simply taking into account moments of force).



Anyone care to shed any light on this.

Thanks in advance, d.

 

[CCDiscoB]

The pictures you see may be staged.

Then again, these days multi-role fighters, like the F-16, would rather carry Aim-120s than Aim-9s. So the priority station for an air to air missile would be the wing tips. Then when maintenance learns which aircraft are fragged for air-to-air, rather than download the wing tips, they just upload Aim-9s under the wing.

 

[Stash]

Heater vs Slammer

The AMRAAM is loaded on the wing, don't exactly know why, maybe for ease of loading. Those pictures aren't staged. They'll go out to in, if 4x2, it will be Slammers on stations 1 & 2 and 8 & 9 (wingtips and the next station). The heaters will be inboard of them on stations 3 and 7. The 370 gal fuel tanks would be on stations 4 and 6, next to the fusulage. I think MX just won another battle, that's why they are there. It does seem like the bigger missiles should be inboard, but, they aren't. It doesn't slow down the roll rate, Hal, the flt control computer, couldn't care less. It is a CAT III configuration when you have slammers onboard (intentionally slower roll rates as to not go out of control) but could easily be switched to CAT I for an extremely high roll rate. Remember, aileron rolls worked in Top Gun, they don't work in the real world. Cheers,

 

[LearLove]

In terms of the F-16 and the Aim-120 it has to do with the "Harmonics" and "natural frequency" basicaly Vibration of the airframe.

 

[Juvat]

Hmmm...

In terms of the F-16 and the Aim-120 it has to do with the "Harmonics" and "natural frequency" basicaly Vibration of the airframe.

Thanks for the laugh. Au contraire, the Viper is a solid little fighter aircraft built to withstand Mach 2.05, 9 Gs, and everywhere in between. I've carried 2000-lb Mk-84 bombs under each wing, hauling like a scalded a$$ ape at 500 kts, 500' AGL, with the wings shaking so badly it looked like they were going to rip right off the jet. The F-16 doesn't have the same harmonic issues as large aircraft (ie: vertical stabs ripping off of 747s, etc.)

You wanna know why they really put the AIM-120 on the wingtips? Because they can (and because bigger missiles just look more manly...kind of like Dirty Harry and his .44)

 

[GVFlyer]

In terms of the F-16 and the Aim-120 it has to do with the "Harmonics" and "natural frequency" basicaly Vibration of the airframe.

All wing stores are flutter and load tested and fully conformed at the AFFTC (Pax for the Navy) prior to issuance to the field.

GV

 

[LearLove]

Thanks for the laugh. Au contraire, the Viper is a solid little fighter aircraft built to withstand Mach 2.05, 9 Gs, and everywhere in between. I've carried 2000-lb Mk-84 bombs under each wing, hauling like a scalded a$$ ape at 500 kts, 500' AGL, with the wings shaking so badly it looked like they were going to rip right off the jet. The F-16 doesn't have the same harmonic issues as large aircraft (ie: vertical stabs ripping off of 747s, etc.)

You wanna know why they really put the AIM-120 on the wingtips? Because they can (and because bigger missiles just look more manly...kind of like Dirty Harry and his .44)

I wasn't ment to be a laugh, but to each his own. Every object weather/wheather it be a airplane, boat, block of metal or dog has a "natural frequency" (ref The Standard Handbook of Mechanical Engineering.) If you hit the natural frequency of said object during certain conditions then said object could be subject damage.

The natural frequency of an object can be varied by changing speed (this speed may be velocity, rotational or other sort), material, loading and shape (ie changing the way you hang stuff from an airplane).

Now its been along time since I did anything as an engineer so I'll stop now.

Again it wasn't a bust on your F-16. So go ahead an laugh or throw your fists over your head or whatever it is you do but maybe stop and think that just maybe somebody around here actually did this type of work at some point in time.

Rolling my eyes I think of how a simple answer can become "I'm better than you" arguement number 9 million on flightinfo.com.

 

[SuperDavi8ator]

What he dosen't tell you is that it was only for a few minutes... then it was time to get gas!

And manly airplanes have tailhooks...

Bumper stickers I would like to see on the back of a Viper

1.) "We came, we saw, we BINGO'd"

2.) "We cover the Target like a Thong Bikini"

3.) This vehicle makes frequent stops

4.) Mach Nix

5.) Lean mean, Flameout Machine

6.) Everything you wanted in a Fighter and Less.

I remember we had a contest in the PI back in the day and came up with 30 or so, Anyone remember any others?

Not trying to bash the Viper guys, h*ll I always wanted to fly one, just all in fun. Sorry for hijacking the tread, just couldn't resist.

 

[BonesF15]

It is pretty funny reading what guys are saying about the Viper who have never actually flown one, including training dudes without wings.

I do not think there is a definitive answer to cover all scenarios. It can be the type of missle rails installed or the units mission or preferences.

Bones

 

[Juvat]

Rolling my eyes I think of how a simple answer can become "I'm better than you" arguement number 9 million on flightinfo.com.

Well my last post wasn't meant to hurt your feelings. And yes I'm still going to laugh, especially when we have an engineering geek in the crowd who is volunteering generic answers about "why" something is done, when I would bet that said engineer has never been within 50 feet of an actual F-16.

Don't be surprised/upset when people who actually fly the F-16 (and have read hundreds of pages of its munitions manuals) don't buy an engineering "answer" that is based on facts, yet has no basis whatsoever in operational knowledge of (or personal experience with) the F-16. Yes, all external munitions are flutter tested, and yes, even a steaming turd has a natural harmonic, but you still didn't correctly answer the guy's question.

 

[bssthound]

According to Juvat: even a steaming turd has a natural harmonic

Thanks for the laugh!!

Thank God my wife's not home right now to "correct" me because of my "natural harmonic." At least you viper guys fly the speed of stink so you can flee the bouquet. In the WC-130 we have to rely on the sextant port.

 

[Juvat]

In the WC-130 we have to rely on the sextant port.

Cool! That's a good use for the port. I always wondered why they didn't super glue that thing shut years ago...now I know!

 

[2Step]

Bonesf15 and Juvat,

The man happens to be correct. If you've flown the jet or not would have nothing to do with it.

 

[Juvat]

The man happens to be correct.

If I told you the sky was blue, I would also be correct, but it still wouldn't answer the original question posed in this thread. Mr. Helper pulled a friggin' engineering fact out of his pants and tried to sell it as the answer to why we put the AIM-120 on stations 1 and 9. Well I'm sorry fellas, but that's not the correct answer. Just because you whip out a fact, doesn't mean there's an automatic correlation with reality. Believe it or not, some things on the Viper are done for non-engineering reasons.

By the way, 2Step: O-2A! My hat's off to ya. Guys who flew that thing had brass big ones. Were you a Raven?

 

[Stash]

Coolness factor

So it the coolness factor in the Dash 1 then? (Sorry.. couldn't help myself)

Viper Driver = Chicks dig us, guys think we're cool!!!

Bones should know, he's got some Viper stank on him before he had a gib...

Check six,

 

[AIR2MUD]

I've carried 2000-lb Mk-84 bombs under each wing, hauling like a scalded a$$ ape at 500 kts, 500' AGL, with the wings shaking so badly it looked like they were going to rip right off the jet.

Ah, yes. The Viper idea of CAS!

 

[RipCurl]

LOL!!!



Hey Mud - I post as Thud on WT, good to see you here

 

[F16TJ]

Why is it that more and more often I see F-16’s with AIM-120s on the wing tips and AIM-9’s on the next pylons inboard. What’s the reason for this because my logic would dictate that the lighter missile on the outer tips would mean a quicker rate of role (by simply taking into account moments of force).



Anyone care to shed any light on this.

Thanks in advance, d.

Depends on the SCL. Most SCLs call for 2 by MRM (Medium Range Missiles, AIM-120) and 2 by SRM (Short Range Missile, AIM-9) and then whatever air to ground munitions is fragged. So, the load is usually 2x2, or 3x1 for air-to-air munitions depending if it is day or night. Viper weapon stations are numbered left to right, 1 to 9 (looking forward).



The Viper OFP (Operational Flight Program) is mechanized to fire left to right, outboard to inboard. So, on a typical intercept profile the first depression of the pickle button (provided the pilot is in the A-A master mode or inboard on the dogfight switch) would fire the missile on station 1, the second pickle would fire station 9, the third pickle would fire station 2, then the next would fire station 8.



Thus, the first opportunity to engage the enemy would be at longer range given a normal intercept profile and then at closer range as the intercept progresses.



So, we load the AIM-120s on the tips (stations 1 & 9) and the AIM-9s inboard (stations 2 & 8) and then if the target has survived all that, you gun him, or her.



BTW, you develop a quicker roll rate by having MORE weight outboard rather than inboard.



Hope this helps…

 

[RipCurl]

BTW, you develop a quicker roll rate by having MORE weight outboard rather than inboard.

*scratching my head*

Can you explain this one to me? Seems to me that if you have all your mass near the centerline of the A/C, it would be more responsive to a roll input than if you had a bunch of mass way out at the wingtips. Picture a turntable with 2 bricks on it, sitting across from one another at the edges. It's gonna take a while for it to get up to speed. Now take those same two bricks and stack them on top of each other in the middle of the turntable. It will accelerate to speed much quicker. Or am I applying the wrong theory to this situation?

 

[milflyboy]

The Viper OFP (Operational Flight Program) is mechanized to fire left to right, outboard to inboard. So, on a typical intercept profile the first depression of the pickle button (provided the pilot is in the A-A master mode or inboard on the dogfight switch) would fire the missile on station 1, the second pickle would fire station 9, the third pickle would fire station 2, then the next would fire station 8.

All depends on what missile is selected though. If AIM 9 is up, 2 and then 8 will of course go first Assuming you fly with the configuration you describe.

 

[F16TJ]

Ripcurl...

*scratching my head*

Can you explain this one to me? Seems to me that if you have all your mass near the centerline of the A/C, it would be more responsive to a roll input than if you had a bunch of mass way out at the wingtips. Picture a turntable with 2 bricks on it, sitting across from one another at the edges. It's gonna take a while for it to get up to speed. Now take those same two bricks and stack them on top of each other in the middle of the turntable. It will accelerate to speed much quicker. Or am I applying the wrong theory to this situation?

Disregard everything I said after BTW ! You are correct. I"ll go back to doing yard ape stuff .

 

[RipCurl]

LOL rgr that.