Expunged Criminal Records

[cale42]

Thats great info Clap.. thanks.

I was just reviewing my court transcripts this morning(god i hope I don't have to say that too often) and it clearly says I plead guilty but 'NO JUDGEMENT ENTERED ON PLEA' so I feel that I am in the clear.

 

[SheGaveMeClap]

I'd agree. Good luck.

 

[airspeed]

If a record has been expunged/sealed and done the right way it will not show up on your FBI file. Only if you have been fingerprinted during an arrest will it show up and that means that even if the charges were dismissed it will still show you were arrested. If you plead guilty and had the charge later dismissed through PTI or a deffered sentance then your guilty plea is withdrawn. That means you never plead guilty. Snakum, I would love to hear what airlines did this to you friends. Its illegal for a company to ask if you have been arrested, only covicted or plead guilty.

 

[pppilot]

how about defferred

I had a misdermeany several years ago (no arrest), I plead guilty but the judge said due to my previously good behavior that he would defer my case for 6 months, if I got into no legal trouble for the next 6 months it would be dismissed. This case is on a paper file (maybe computer but unknown) with the city's municipal court system. I called the municipal court to ask about this case, now that I am applying I want to be 100% on what it is about, and talking to two district attorneys, one said it is a conviction, the other said it is not, WTFO.

I think I am going to mention it on aps anyway and explain what happened and what I learned, but if the occasion comes up, such as with medicals, so you guys think it is a conviction? And if I paid for a federal background check and it is not on it, but it is only listed with the muni court is it safe to assume that nobody will know about it unless I spill the beans or they call that city’s muni court?



thanks

pp

 

[SheGaveMeClap]

Funny how fast criminals come out of the facking woodwork when something like this is brought up!!!

No offense to anyone, I'm one of them!!

 

[wrxpilot]

For the love of God, man ... READ the posts on this. One last time ...

For the purposes of aviation back-ground checks by both the FAA and Part 121 airlines for unescorted access, both of which utilize the Federal Criminal History report ... there is no such thing as an expungement. If you have ever been arrested for a felony offense, whether you were 8, 18, or 50 years old, and regardless of the eventual conviction ... it's in your Federal file. If you were ever arrested for a class 2 or higher misdemeanor, the chances are good that they're gonna have that, too, regardless of the conviction/non-conviction.

When the airlines or the FAA ask you if you have ever been arrested for a non-traffic offense ... TELL THEM THE G@DD@MN TRUTH! They will find out, and you will join at least two other people I know who were pulled out of ground school and sent packing. I am currently under investigation by a Federal Agent for the FAA and I have always listed my two convictions, and one other which was expunged after a PJC. It's a good thing I did too, because it's IN MY FEDERAL HISTORY ... and so is yours! If I did not have proof that I had listed these offenses on my medical apps from day one I would have had my medical pulled immediately and would be looking at a hefty fine. The FAA is cracking down on this stuff.

Jesus ... why are you guys always trying to skirt the rules?

Minh

Hmm... These background investigation things can get complicated. The standard DOD "rigorous" background investigations I've seen (i.e. SSBI) look at your 10 year history and/or convictions past your 18th birthday. I *think* that if you'd pulled some things as a juvie but 10 years have elapsed since then, you'll be ok on the investigation. I'm willing to bet those guys you know that were yanked were still within that window.

 

[midlifeflyer]

It depends on what state it was in and what the court record actually says. "Deferred judgments" can be guilty findings that never come into being or they can be guilty findings that are eventually and automatically reversed. State law and federal law may or may not treat either type (or the variations that exist) as a "conviction." In some states, they don't even use the phrase "deferred judgment" even though they have something very similar.

If it's important to you, get a lawyer (=your= lawyer, not the seriously overworked deputy DA who has 150 active cases on her desk and who couldn't care less about your old case) to pull the record and tell you whether it was a conviction or not. If it's not that important, ask in an online aviation forum.

 

[Snakum]

"Deferred judgments" can be guilty findings that never come into being or they can be guilty findings that are eventually and automatically reversed.

I can tell you this much, deffered judgements, PJCs etc. are convictions until you can prove otherwise without a shadow of a doubt, as far as the FAA is concerned.



Minh

 

[FN FAL]

Funny how fast criminals come out of the facking woodwork when something like this is brought up!!!

No offense to anyone, I'm one of them!!

maybe the feds are just trolling to see what comes up. Ever give that one a thought?

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

maybe the feds are just trolling to see what comes up. Ever give that one a thought?

LOL! Most people don't have to worry about it because most convictions are minor (trespassing, underage drinking, vandalism, ect) and won't affect their job prospects.

 

[A Squared]

Its illegal for a company to ask if you have been arrested, only covicted or plead guilty.

I am *extrememly* skeptical that this is true. Exactly what law is this which makes this illegal? I don't mean I want you to tell me; "my brother's hairdresser, who's cousin is a lawyer said this is true" I mean quote a specific federal, state or local statute which makes this illegal. I would be very surprised if you could do this.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

dont believe that BS. it may illegal to ask you that question but when your background check comes back and you lied...no job bro'. illegal or not. Not the risk I would take.


best advice yet was a few posts ago..


the things you are worried about are trivial, but lying is not.


good luck

 

[surplus1]

I'm not an expert on this subject and don't want anyone to think that I'm prending to be (but I did stay at a Holiday In Express last night). I am not an attorney and I'm not giving legal advice, so just take this for whatever it's worth to you.

Seriously, and this is a very serious issue, there are few certaincies in the stew.

My lawyer friends, criminal lawyers, have discussed this issue with me. Not in the context of the FAA but in general. These lawyers tell me that there is really no such thing as " record expungement". The term is an oxymoron, both misunderstood and misapplied.

According to them, what really happens when you request "expungment" is that your records are "sealed". The trick is they are not "sealed" to everyone. Law enforcement officials, which includes both State and Federal, will always have access to your records. That includes arrests, charges, dismissals, convictions, acquittals and any other legal dispositions that may result from an arrest.

Getting your records "sealed" is not an automatic process. It may vary from one State to another but it doesn't "just happen". If you have been only arrested (but never formally charged) or arrested and charged, you will have to formally request that your records be sealed and go through the legal process in your State. This usually requires new fingerprints (yeah I know it makes no sense and I don't know why it just does), affidavits, certificates of "eligibility", and a court appearance by your lawyer, and a ruling by a judge, and the payment of several "fees" (not to mention compensation of your attorney). It doesn't matter whether you were "just arrested" and never charged, the case was dismissed (nolle prosecui), which means the DA didn't prosecute, it was dismissed in court, adjudication was witheld, or you had a full trial and were found "not guilty". As an aside, you are never, repeat never, found "innocent". Just ask OJ Simpson. Not guilty and innocent are not the same thing. Not legally and not in the eyes of Joe Public. No court in the USA has the power to find you "innocent" of anything.

[For the maker of the thread: Please don't be offended, I don't mean anything personal about this. But, there is no way you can be required to serve any sentence, including community service only, or pay any fine (even $1), or pay and "costs". unless you have been found guilty of an offense of some kind. In other words, convicted. Adjudication may be witheld by the judge but you were nevertheless legally considered to be guilty of something.]

Once you've done all that and assuming that ALL of the various people that process the paperwork actually do what they are supposed to do, your records will be sealed, but only to the non law enforcement community. If any one of the maybe dozens of people that have to make computer entries (database) or seal physical files does not do a perfect job of it, anyone that looks hard enough will find the records, and that includes things that happened while you were a juvenile. Law enforcement in your State and in other States (they all have exchange agreements) will always have access to the records. Maybe not the cop on the street, but somebody in the Department.

Notice I haven't even mentioned the Federal Government. To keep it simple, they will have "access" too. Not everybody all of the time, but somebody (FBI, CIA, Justice Department, etc,) will have access some of the time. Who these people have "agreed" to exchange information with or what information they may "exchange" is anybody's guess. It literally depends on which clerk is working the "desk" when the request comes in. If anybody looks hard enough (including you yourself) the information can eventually be found. What you do at the State level in the effort to "seal" your records, really has nothing to do with the Federal system. They didn't "agree" or were not ordered by your judge to seal anything.

If your "arrest" was for a Federal (as opposed to State) offense, it's a whole different ball game. The Federal courts and the State courts are independent of each other. See your lawyer for questions on "Federal" record sealing.

In today's paranoia and the era of the Patriot Act, "privacy" is no longer something that American citizens are entitled to have or may expect. It's out the window and any "normal" citizen of the US now has less privacy than and immigrant from Saudi Arabia. It is not politically correct to profile potential terrorists, but it is perfectly OK to do it to every one else. That is what happens when our government acts without taking time to think.

Bottom line: The ONLY way you can be certain that your record is "clean" is 1) you have never been "arrested" for anything and you have NEVER had even a traffic ticket, and 2) some clerk somewhere didn't get your name confused with somebody else. Don't kid yourselves, "Big Brother" is watching.

Something as simple as the incorrect spelling of your name can result in no information being found in your "background check" when you're guilty as sin, or a whole lot of incorrect information turning up when you are in fact "innocent". Given the accuracy and yes, the "opinions" of the people doing the actual paper work and database computer entries, you are literally "P*ing in the wind" if you believe that any record of any kind is "expunged" or sealed or private.

Do I agree with that? He11 NO! It is grossly unfair and it should not happen. Guess what, it happens every day. It also doesn't matter what I think or what you think about it. There's nothing we can really do about it.

If it really matters to you, don't try to hide anything and do not depend on what you think is an expunged or sealed record. Just tell the truth and roll with the punches.

Here is a true story. Use it as you see fit. (And this all happened BEFORE 9/11 and the Patriot Act).

Captain X is employed as a airline captain with airline XYZ. He's been there for 7 years and has a perfect record.

Way back when, in his early twenties, he was arrested and charged with a Federal crime involving narcotics. He was convicted. He was sentenced under a "youthful offender" program and the court issued an order, a written order, that "sealed" all the records if he completed his sentencing program successfully. He did so. When it was over, he went back to court and the Federal judge issued another order. That order prohibited him from talking about the case, permanently. It also prohibited all Federal officials with knowledge of the case from revealing any information about the case, permanently. The order contained a sentence that specifically stated that he was neither required nor permitted to reveal the arrest or conviction in any employment application.

He believed all that and when he applied for the job at airline XYZ, he answered NO, to the arrest/conviction questions. In other words he lied, just as the court had ordered him to do.

One day he is on a trip and in command of his airliner. When it lands he comes out of the cockpit and stands in the doorway to thank his passengers. Among them is one of DEA agents that was actively involved in his case. The agent recognizes the captain, but the captain does not recognize the agent. They say nothing to each other.

A week later the Company receives a letter from the DEA agent asking why the airline is employing a drug dealer as one of its pilots and demanding they do something about it. The letter specifically names Captain X.

The Company calls the captain in and asks his side of the story. He tells them the whole truth and gives them copies of the court orders mentioned above. They listen. Three days later the captain gets a pink slip. You're terminated. Reason = falsification of your employment application.

His union files a grievance on his behalf. The Company denies the grievance. The union requests arbitration. The arbitrator hears the case, sees all of the court orders, including the one that specifically says he is not permitted to disclose his case on any employment application and is prohibited from doing so. The arbitrator renders his "opinion" and rules in favor of the Company. The pilot loses his job.

Was it me? No it was not, but that pilot was and still is a personal friend. He's an excellent pilot and he had a perfect record with the company. It didn't matter. Fortunately, it did not involve the FAA and he did not lose his medical. He is employed today as a widebody captain with a different, but relatively unknown airline. He finally "got lucky". For years, he was forced to become an expartriate and work overseas because of this. It cost him his job and nearly ruined his career. I didn't make any of this up, it really happened. It is a true story. Do I think he was treated fairly? No, I do not. Do I understand why airline XYZ fired him? Yes, I do.... they couldn't risk the headline "Drug Dealer Pilots Airliner". Just think of what sombody like FOX News, USA Tody or the National Enquirer could do with that.

Did anything happen to the DEA agent that broke the law by writing to the Company? Yes, he was charged with a misdemeanor and paid a small fine (less than $500). How do I know this? The captain is my friend and I happened to be one of his union representatives at the time. Before this all happened, he had never told me about the incident and I knew nothing about it. He lost his job, but he didn't lose his friends. He's that same good guy he always was, he dosen't touch drugs in any way. He just made a mistake as a kid. Sh!t happens.

I hope these comments will be helpful to those of you that are interested. Recommendation: Tell the whole truth; believe none of what you hear and only one-half of what you see. The job you save will be your own.

Best wishes.

 

[Pilot124]

Thanks man.......

 

[cale42]

Thanks for the post surplus.. that is definitely a interesting story.


For the most part I think your comments were right on.. especially regarding the sealing and expunging of records. That information actually being concealed is very dependent on some extremely low level low paid clerks.. you can never entirely trust it.
Regarding your comments about a conviction though, I think you are incorrect. A guilty plea does NOT equal a conviction. Especially in cases regarding a plea bargain.. often times the terms are that you will plead guilty to a lesser charge and receive court supervision(this is usually a one time only deal, but that varies by state). Assuming the supervision if properly completed no conviction is ever entered. See the below website on court supervision.
http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cjs01.htm

My stance is that in regards to the question the FAA asks on the medical regarding have you ever been convicted of a non traffic offense the answer in my case is now. I was charged with one, and plead guilty to one, but I was never convicted of it. I feel this is very black and white.

On the expunged records issue, I will have my records expunged.. however I know they are still always out there. If I have a form that asks was I ever arrested I will say yes. I have nothing to hide, I am truly just trying to answer the question as truthfully as possible. In my view I do not have a conviction. If someone pulls a criminal record on me from the county I was charged in it will show a charge, and court supervision, but it will not show a conviction. Again that is just my take, others may see it differently, but I feel that is fairly solid ground to be on.


On a separate note in answer to A squared's comments. I don't beleive it is illegal for a company to ask if you have ever been arrested, but it is illegal for them to make a hiring decision based on that. It is the whole concept of innocent until proving guilty. You can be arrested or even charged with something and be completely acquitted, be it on a technicality or be it wronfully accused. This is seen often in cases that are basically he said/she said type things. If you were accused of a crime by someone, charged and go to court, but prove in court the other person was lying you are acquitted of that charge. It would be unfair for a company to make a hiring decision based on someone else accusing you of something. Thus the view that most places don't even ask about arrests or charges... only convictions.

cale

 

[Snakum]

He just made a mistake as a kid. Sh!t happens.

Selling narcotics in your early twenties is definitely not 'just ... a mistake as a kid' in my humble opinion, and it certainly doesn't just '... happen.'

He may be the salt of the earth today, but a twenty-year-old man knows what's at stake when he decides to sell narcotics. And at twenty-two or twenty-three-years-old, I seriously doubt he was sentenced as a youthful offender. Sorry ... that doesn't add up. There's more to that little story.

Minh

 

[cale42]

For anyone interested I finally found the actual law pertaining to court supervision and whether it is a conviction. I'll post the link to the whole page but the relative part is as follow.

(f) Discharge and dismissal upon a successful conclusion of a disposition of supervision shall be deemed without adjudication of guilt and shall not be termed a conviction for purposes of disqualification or disabilities imposed by law upon conviction of a crime


http://www.legis.state.il.us/legislation/ilcs/ilcs4.asp?DocName=073000050HCh%2E+V+Art%2E+6&ActID=1999&ChapAct=730%26nbsp%3BILCS%26nbsp%3B5%2F&ChapterID=55&ChapterName=CORRECTIONS&SectionID=61715&SeqStart=38500&SeqEnd=40200&ActName=Unified+Code+of+Corrections%2E

 

[airspeed]

Most airlines are staffed by hr and chief pilots, especially Allegheny that just don't give a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**. Most co. overseas are not as anal about this stuff, at least the ones I have worked for. Thats a very interesting story. Did he try to at least sue his former employer?

 

[surplus1]

Thanks for the post surplus.. that is definitely a interesting story.

You realy got me interested in this thing, so after your last post, I called one of my lawyer buddies who told me some more and directed me to which law I should research, in my State.

I live in Florida and apparently there is no equivalent to the Illinois statue you posted in the FL statutes.

Apart from that, there is a law about expunction and a seperate law about sealing. The difference is not huge, but there is a difference. Both statutes require a formal application and the order of a court before the Department of Law Enforcement takes any action. It is too long an to complicated to post here, but if anyone wants to read it go to http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?Mode=View Statutes&Submenu=1&Tab=statutes and then go to TITLE XLVII, CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND CORRECTIONS, then go to Chapter 943.0585 for Expunction and Chapter 943.050 for Sealing. Plan to do some heavy reading.

In both cases, certain types of crimes make you ineligible for both porcedures, period. Again in both cases, you can only do it if you have never done it before.

In both cases you cannot do it at all if you plead guilty, or plead nolo contendre, even if adjudication was witheld.

I only read it once and like I said its pretty heavy reading. As far as I can remember, if you get the expungement order, the State is required to notify the FBI and you can legally say it never happened, unless you are applying for certain specific jobs (listed) like teacher, police officer, attorney and so forth.

If you get a "sealed" order they don't notify the FBI, the same job types require you to "show and tell" and there are other differences I can't remember.

While I can't argue with what you posted as Illinois law, remember that the FAA is a Federal Agency. The law that requires airlines to investigate you background is a Federal law. The form 8500 that we use for medicals is governed by Federal law. State laws do no supercede conflicting Federal laws and the State has no jurisdiction with respect to them. Keep that in mind when you make your decision.

While laws of the several States agree in most cases with each other, many do not so what applies in one State is not necessarily the same as what applies in another State. In this situation it looks like what that means is that your State may allow you to conceal a record that my State does not, and the Federal laws may not recognize either one of them.

In Florida a guilty plea or a nolo contendre (no contest) plea definitely equals a conviction. So does a witholding of ajudication. The only exception appears to be what we call "diversion programs" for juveniles. That may be different in your State, I really don't know. Basically we have 50 little independent "countries" in a Federation. It can get complicated.

Whatever you decide, I wish you the best and hope you won't get hurt by an old bump in the road.

 

[surplus1]

Selling narcotics in your early twenties is definitely not 'just ... a mistake as a kid' in my humble opinion, and it certainly doesn't just '... happen.'

Not that it matters, but he wasn't selling the drugs themselves. What he did was fly the airplane that made the drop. I wasn't trying to "excuse" the behavior. It was a dumb thing to do.

He may be the salt of the earth today, but a twenty-year-old man knows what's at stake when he decides to sell narcotics. And at twenty-two or twenty-three-years-old, I seriously doubt he was sentenced as a youthful offender. Sorry ... that doesn't add up. There's more to that little story.
Minh

You can of course believe what you want to and disbelieve what you want to. I don't have a problem with either one. I only told the story because I thought it was a good example of the fact that there are consequences for what we do and it doesn't matter if we are young and foolish or old and foolish.

He was sentenced as a youthful offender under a Federal program (no longer in existence) for people up to 24 years of age. I'm not smart enough to make all of that up and even if I was, there is no reason to do so just to post on a forum for a bunch of people that I don't know, most of whom haven't been alive very long. That whole thing (the discovery) happened in 1989, his conviction was in the 70's. As I said before, I only came to know the details because I was involved in the grievance arbitration. Otherwise, he would not have told me. It wasn't a question of me believing his "story", I saw the paperwork myself.