Examiner Flight Time Logging.

[NYCPilot]

Something I'm curious about.

Do DPE's or FAA examiners log any pilot time on checkrides?

I assume they keep some log of the checkrides, but are there any FAR's that allow them to log some form of SIC or PIC time. I am aware that the applicant is PIC for the ride.

Also, do they have to have a medical and what class. I would think so, as they may have to intervene or take control if necessary.

 

[T Dub]

A DPE can not log any of the flight time during a checkride because the applicant is the PIC - 61.47(b), and they are required to have a third class medical.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Something I'm curious about.

Do DPE's or FAA examiners log any pilot time on checkrides?

I assume they keep some log of the checkrides, but are there any FAR's that allow them to log some form of SIC or PIC time. I am aware that the applicant is PIC for the ride.

I don't know of any special logging reg for examiners. They log under 61.51 just like the rest of us. Here's the DPE logging I can think of off-hand.

1. PIC for the minimal time when the examiner demonstrates something or flies the airplane, That's basic "sole manipulator" stuff.

2. SIC when acting as safety pilot during a checkride (pilot taking the ride being under the hood)

3. PIC when acting as safety pilot during a checkride (pilot taking the ride being under the hood) on which the examiner specifically agrees to assume PIC responsibilities.

4. SIC if acting as SIC while giving a checkride for a type rating in an aircraft that is certified for two-pilot operations. (if DPE is assuming PIC responsibilities)

I think that's about it. I don't =think= a DPE giving a checkride is considered acting as a CFI giving instruction, but if it =is= then the DPE gets to log the whole ride as PIC under that part of the reg.

Also, do they have to have a medical and what class. I would think so, as they may have to intervene or take control if necessary.

Two answers to this one.

1. FAR aside, the FAA has job qualifications for DPEs. AFAIK, DPEs have to have to have at least a third class medical certificate if they are examining pilots for certificates and ratings that require a medical certificate. So, for example, DPEs who test balloon pilots don't need a medical.

2. From a straight FAR standpoint, the examiner would have to have at least a third medical in the 4 PIC/SIC situations I described above because the examiner would be a required crewmember.

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

I think you're wrong on most if not all accounts. Let's break this into two areas. First, the FAA ASI, cannot log the time or assume any PIC position during an evaluation. The prohibition in 61.47 is pretty clear as well as the Aviation Safety Inspector's Handbook. Aside from regulatory limitaions, there are legal precedents as well. As for the DPE, the same limitations apply, except by agreement with the applicant. Having been a DPE for 10 years and an ASI for 5, I am hard pressed to think of a single incident where I acted as PIC on a flight evaluation. One may say, what about an instrument ride in IMC. Well, I don't do them in IMC and the other examiners and ASIs I know, do them in day VMC. As for type rides, I don't know of any examiners who log SIC time if they're performing a ride in the aircraft. Basically because if you're a DPE doing type rides, you don't need the time. You got it long ago and the few hours of SIC time in aircraft you're already typed in doesn't mean anything.

As for medicals, and FAA ASI reqires a Second Class, and Examiner a Third Class but most DPEs are working aviation professionals who hold at least Second if not First Class medicals.

Aside from anything else, if you're PIC on an evaluation flight and something goes wrong, you're the one on the blame line. So to avoid any legal hassles, we all comply with 61.47 and do our best not only to give the applicant a fair evaluation, but a safe one as well.

 

[midlifeflyer]

. First, the FAA ASI, cannot log the time or assume any PIC position during an evaluation.

I thought the question was not about logging time, not acting as PIC. As I'm sure you know, the two are very different.

The prohibition in 61.47 is pretty clear as well as the Aviation Safety Inspector's Handbook.

61.47(b) is not a prohibition. If you think that it is, you should read it more carefully:

==============================
(b) The examiner is not the pilot in command of the aircraft during the practical test unless the examiner agrees to act in that capacity for the flight or for a portion of the flight by prior arrangement...
==============================

I agree that it would be rare (and not particularly smart) for an examiner to take on the added responsibility. Of course, 61.47 is not a =complete= protection from liability, just from PIC-based liability.

The basic logging rules I referred to are long-standing and apply to all pilots.
Whether a DPE (or any pilot for that matter) =chooses= to log any of the time has nothing to do with whether the FAR =permit= him to log the time.

But I was only answering from a regulation standpoint. It's interesting to hear what examiners actually do on a practical basis.

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

Getting back to the original question, I suppose you could log PIC time, but any examiner (FAA ASI or DPE) will more than likely not. As far as the point you make about 61.47, the exclusion is there, but most examiner will not exercise that option. Dumb move and as I previously said, leaves youself open to all sorts of problems. You might want to have a long talk with one of your local DPEs or the FSDO about this issue if you have such concerns.

 

[NYCPilot]

Thanks for the responses. I'm not a DE or inspector, just a question that came to mind.

 

[BLing]

I know an examiner that logs all of his rides. He just logs it for his own records in a seperate log book. He does not log it as PIC unless he actually had to act as PIC during some point in the ride. Mainly, its just a record of each flight that he keeps for his own records with no intent of counting towards currency or his actual total time.

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

As do I and every examiner I know. But not in a logbook, in a file I keep on every applicant I fly with. This is more for a CYA and loss of paperwork issue by the FAA.

 

[transpac]

Not sure if it's still the case, but a few years ago a prospective DE needed 300 hours in the past twelve months in order to be designated. One result of that was that a retiring FAA Inspector who wanted to be a DE found it virtually impossible to qualify unless he/she had flown a heck of a lot while off-duty. Always seemed strange to me that one day a person was qualified and current to give almost any type of check ride and the next day couldn't meet the standards to give a Private.

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

Not sure if it's still the case, but a few years ago a prospective DE needed 300 hours in the past twelve months in order to be designated. One result of that was that a retiring FAA Inspector who wanted to be a DE found it virtually impossible to qualify unless he/she had flown a heck of a lot while off-duty. Always seemed strange to me that one day a person was qualified and current to give almost any type of check ride and the next day couldn't meet the standards to give a Private.

As a former Inspector who became a DPE again, the reason is that nobody from the non-FAA side would ever have an opportunity to become a DPE if only retired ASIs got the job. Also, one of the requirements is to be holding an "active" aviation job at the time of appointment. A retired inspector is that, retired. Unless they go to another aviation job, say flight instructor or corporate pilot, they would not be eligable for appointment. Now once you get appointed, all you need to do is to maintain your required number of evaluations annually, attend DPE recurrent training and meetings annually, and pass your annual evaluation from the FSDO, you can retire from a full time aviation job and do something in aviation part-time.