Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Evil S.O.B´s

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
To the guys that are being squeezed by XJ for training contract repayment: Let this go as long as you can. Your credit will not be affected unless it goes to court, the judge rules against you, and THEN you don't pay. Dispute the debt. Do not pay before you have to!! In the meantime, get a lawyer to represent you in court - this is still necessary because of the procedures of a courtroom are alien to most, and the judges do not have patience with Joe Street trying to present his case according to common sense rather than courtroom protocol. This lawyer may cost you $500 or so, but it will probably save you more than that. You are likley to settle prior to a court appearance for less, or you are likely to have the judge rule against you, BUT for less than the entire amount, based on your ability to pay. My point is that nothing is settled until the judge makes a decision. Maybe you would get smacked for the whole thing plus legal fees, but I'd take another lump fighting back rather than just sit still for a beating. I think you will come out money ahead and have the satisfaction of making it tough for the greed machine that is Mesaba. Yeah, you owe money according to this contract. But if some of you think it's dishonorable for a pilot to fight this, then your Dudley Do-Right a$$ doesn't belong in this sandbox. This is about an honest, hardworking group of pilots without a lot of options for fair employment just trying to make a living. Fight back on the grounds that you can't pay (BOY, will your W-2s support that!), and see what you can get. And yes, my opinions come from a personal experience in a similar situation. Good luck to you! Ex XJer
 
Last edited:
Sinca3 said:

Obviously you need to read the article you moron. They are not charging furloughed pilots for training costs. Instead they are charging those who resigned from the company prior to their training agreement. Simply stated, your union contract is a binding document. And sometimes it works against you.
 
Wow there are actually pilots who think they should pay the company back...I know if you knew you were getting furloughed and did not take the next opportunity to get another job to support your family ASAP then you are an idoit....I think any judge would see the common sense aspect and side with the pilots on this one

I personally will never fly on a NW again
 
rogerdoger said:
Obviously you need to read the article you moron. They are not charging furloughed pilots for training costs. Instead they are charging those who resigned from the company prior to their training agreement. Simply stated, your union contract is a binding document. And sometimes it works against you.
Hey Rog are you sure?

If you read the article you may have seen this:

But they also stressed that management has informed them that it "reserves the right" to issue the letters to any pilot who was furloughed but had not completed one year of flying with Mesaba.
Who's the moron?

but I digress. It will be funny to see the "personal responsibility" crowd try to decide what is worse...breaking a training contract and working another job or sitting on unemployment and collecting tax payer dollars.

"Living off my taxes...breaking contracts...my taxes...contract..."
BOOM head explodes.
 
I didn't see the full StarTribune article here, so if I may...

Mesaba bills ex-pilots for training costs

The bankrupt airline is trying to recover training costs from pilots who left before being laid off. The pilots union is outraged.


Liz Fedor, Star Tribune


Bankrupt Mesaba Airlines is insisting that first-year pilots, who were earning $21,000 a year, reimburse Mesaba for thousands of dollars in pilot training costs because the pilots left Mesaba shortly before their furlough dates.An unspecified number of former Mesaba pilots were sent certified letters this month stating they must pay thousands of dollars to Mesaba within 30 days or their pilot-training bills will be turned over to a collection agency.
Tom Wychor, chairman of the Mesaba pilots union, expressed outrage Monday over management's actions. "Financially it's stupid, and morally it's reprehensible," Wychor said in a Star Tribune interview.


In late 2005, many Mesaba pilots were notified that they would be furloughed in January or February as the airline downsized its workforce in bankruptcy.


Some of those first-year pilots who were about to lose their jobs at Mesaba found employment with other companies and gave Mesaba two weeks' notice.


But before they began flying for Eagan-based Mesaba, they'd signed training agreements calling for them to remain with the carrier for one year or else they would have to pay back part of their training costs.


Within the past week, union leaders have been contacted by several pilots who got the letters demanding quick repayment. Wychor read from a letter Monday that was sent to a first-year pilot who is ordered to reimburse Mesaba for almost $9,000.


Wychor said that Mesaba management spends about $21,000 per first-year pilot in training costs, and the pilots who received training bills are being directed to pay different amounts on a pro-rated basis. A pilot who flew for the carrier for six months -- and left before the furlough date -- would be billed for more than $10,000 in reimbursement costs.


Wychor, a 17-year Mesaba pilot, said that the payback provision had not been enforced during his tenure with the company. He explained that the language was a safeguard against pilots going through Mesaba's training, flying for the carrier for a few months and then deciding to shift quickly to another airline.


In 2005-06, he said, first-year pilots didn't simply pick up and leave Mesaba -- they resigned because they were about to be furloughed.
Mesaba management has a much different view.


"We are enforcing the provisions of the contract we signed with our pilot employees when they joined the company," Mesaba spokesman Jon Austin said Monday.


Mesaba declined to say how many pilots received the letters. Before Mesaba filed for bankruptcy in October, it had about 850 pilots. Now, the union said, 146 pilots -- the least senior -- are on furlough.


Leaders of the Mesaba branch of the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) expressed strong opposition Monday to management's decision to send training bills to pilots who left the company before their furlough dates. But they also stressed that management has informed them that it "reserves the right" to issue the letters to any pilot who was furloughed but had not completed one year of flying with Mesaba.


"We'd just as soon find a good solution" to this issue, Wychor said. He noted that the repayment topic surfaced in late 2005 and the union discussed it with Ed Davidson, then the vice president of flight operations at Mesaba.
Wychor said that Davidson joined Mesaba in the summer of 2005, and employees were notified in February that Davidson was leaving Mesaba to take an airline job in the United Arab Emirates.


When Davidson was hired by Mesaba, he got a $10,000 signing bonus, Wychor said, yet there is no record of Davidson having to repay it even though he voluntarily left his Mesaba management job in less than a year.
Mesaba's Austin said: "Mr. Davidson's relationship with the company has nothing to do with those contractual obligations between Mesaba and its pilots." Asked directly whether Davidson will have to repay the signing bonus after moving to Dubai, Austin said, "We do not discuss personnel issues as a matter of long-standing policy."


Mesaba is attempting to reduce its labor costs by 19.4 percent and to reach agreements with its unions that last for six years. Today, Mesaba pilot negotiators and management return to the bargaining table, but mediators are being brought in to help jump-start the talks.
 
I got the money right here, rolled up in my 5 day old , crap stained chones. I'll give it you right after I get done taxiing your plane into the bag cart. I guess you should have trained me better.
 
File bankruptcy like they did then tell them your in a cash negative position and currently unable to meet your current fudusiary(sp) resposibilities. But that your are still interested in working for them if they should hire in the not to distant future; you would once again enjoy being in there employment.
 
Roger, maybe you need to understand the situation better. These were pilots who WERE being furloughed and had furlough dates. They took jobs, some only days before their furlough date, and theses SOBs are trying to collect. I hope they burn in hell!

JB
 
easily the most reprehensible thing i've heard of a regional airline doing. even if technically the contract can be enforced in this way, any reasonable person can see that it's purely legal loophole threading in order to squeeze money out of already struggling pilots.

thesource and mesaba2425 deserve a blanket party for defending such behavior. just another sad example of how even pilots these days don't care about anybody but themselves.
 
Take 'em to Court

Couple of things about XJ management attempting to enforce the training contract. First, I am a furloughed XJ pilot and, in my previous life, was an attorney. It’s been a couple of years since I’ve practiced, but just to throw a couple things out here. Is the contract enforceable? Maybe and maybe not. Yes, you signed the training contract. Therefore, looking only within the “four corners” of the contract, and at nothing else, there could be an argument for enforcement. But, to me, that’s as far as it goes. When you fill the voids of black letter contract law with case law, public policy, etc., you see there’s a lot more than just those four corners of the contract. That’s where the “you signed on the dotted line so you’re screwed” argument ends.

There is some sort of underlying expectation in a contract. Here, it can be argued that by signing the training contract and exposing yourself to potential monetary liability if you didn’t keep up your end of the bargain, you had a reasonable expectation, in return for that risk, of gainful employment. What is gainful employment? I don’t know, as I’m just sort of riffing here, but it could be employment providing reasonable wages, health benefits, and all for a reasonable period of time. Or, even just what they told you it was going to be when you got hired. My point is, there’s a lot of room for argument here. Further, what is the underlying policy reason for this training contract? It’s simple. The Company doesn’t want to pay 20 grand for a pilot to stick around for one week after OE and leave them on the hook for the cost. They want to recoup at least some portion of that investment. Why is this stuff important? Because it’s what judges look at when you’re arguing before the court. They consider the contract in a context, not just the black and white letter of the law.

So, the context here is that Mesaba told you when you got hired (as they told me) that they would be going gangbusters and hiring a gazillion guys and the company’s finances were better than GE’s, etc. etc; they led you to believe your future there would certainly be longer than one year; you were offered the job and accepted; you signed all the relevant docs, including the dreaded training contract; you called all your other potential employers and told them thanks but no thanks. Then the walls came down and everyone on the furlough list scrambled to find other flying jobs so they could take care of their families, keep their careers going, whatever. The ones that were lucky enough to find something before losing employment resigned their numbers.

Well, when you signed the training contract just under a year prior, you didn’t sign the contract with the intention of breaching it. You signed the contract with the expectation of some reasonable term of gainful employment from Mesaba. You signed with the expectation of what they told you at the interview. You didn’t get any of that. (And, by the way, you didn’t sign under coercion or duress, but for the above reasons.) And, yes, some will argue it’s the airline industry and you never know what’s going to happen. And, no, you don’t. But it’s a two-way street. Management gets something from your signing the contract and you get something in return. If they don’t give, you don’t give.

Taking all this into consideration, if I had the case, I’d be chomping at the bit to get at these guys, because I think the case is as close to a slam dunk as you can get in front of a judge (if there is such a thing), and especially if you can get it in front of a jury. I hope ALPA is doing something, but one idea is to get a list of all the XJ guys that got the letter, get them together, get a recommendation from ALPA for a good local attorney (private not ALPA) and see if you can pool your funds together or work out a contingency with the guy. You want to act fast, though, because you want to be able to file a complaint against Mesaba Airlines and every individual that has touched, signed, or sniffed that agreement. Once Mesaba flips the debt to a collection agency, you’ll have to deal with them as well. An attorney can get a complaint filed pretty quickly and that puts you on the offensive, as well as requires Mesaba to respond. Not only that, it’d be great just to see those SOBs squirm. Just a little rant from my part, but maybe some of this will help.





 
YourPilotFriend said:
I read the contract . . .
YPF, where did you get a copy?

I'm always amazed with what info you can get your hands on. FBI? CIA? GRU? TCU?
 
Mesabi Miner said:
This is not a legal issue. Without reading the contract, I'd probably have to say that the pilots do owe the money back to Mesaba. BUT, like I said, this is not a legal issue. The issue here is the consciences of Mesaba Airlines upper management. This stunt, while probably legal, is not morally right. I don't think that point can be disputed. If you were an owner of your own company, would your conscience allow you to manipulate a fellow human being to such an extent? We are so morally challenged in this world. And we fail so miserably. This little ploy is a blaring example and is something for which our "management team" should be extremely embarrassed.

MM

I think that says it all. It seems to me that Morals and intrinsic honesty have gone completely away at the XJ leadership. We all know there can be a BIG difference between what is legally right and what is morally right.
 
Trestles, Finally an attorney I can agree with

Well said sir. Thank you for putting it in a way that is understandable and concise. What is really sad it that we have turned to fighting each other on whose 'morals and ethics' as judged relitive to our own postition at the time group. We are doing EXACTLY what management wants us to to fight amongt ourselves about things that are quasi enforcable. Not fight about the real issues here.

Our society is evolving into an Let's say it and see if it flies mentality (no pun intended) If not the only place you can go to prove me wrong is in court. Oh and I have more money that you so even if I don't win it will still cost you more than you can afford. So do what I told you or we'll see the judge. I agree with you a judge will throw this out faster that the stuff that goes through a goose. Yet how many people have emotional responded to thios post? Am I angry? you bet I am but I'm NOT about to let them know it or let it distract me from the REAL issues at hand.

Is what is going on wrong here yes it is, but the way to solve it isn't through reteric but through cafeful and consise investigation, ALL facts must be considered. Someone once said 'The facts cannot be ignored even if they are the truth'. Instead we have become the quintesential "Don't confuse me with facts I've already made up my mind". Abe Lincoln said many years ago ' A House divided against it self will not stand" Right now we are more divided than ever and are unable to stand let alone start to rebuild the house. We instaed resort to arguing about where to place the first, or next block, not what we are trying to build.

For those who haven't seen it yet and those that have I will still recommend it get the movie "WAG THE DOG" with dustin hoffman. Watch it and tell me that that isn't what is really happening here. The tail is waging the dog not the dog waging the tail.

I'm no attorny, and I'll be the first to admit that I don't have any answers just mostly questions, and I try to learn something new each day, but if justice is blind from emotion and fear, shouldn't we? AS really that is what we are after, isn't it??


TJ furloughed XJer
 
Last edited:
Trestles, Finally an attorney I can agree with

Sorry double post as I really don't do this often and don't know how to delete it.
 
How much notice were the furloughees given of their furlough prior to their furlough date? How long before their furlough date did the effected pilots quit?
 
The latest furloughed pilots were given plenty of notice, unlike the furloughed newhires at XJ over the years that were told to just get out. No notice to those pilots......the contract only applies to certain employees.

Their furlough date was ONE day before their year anniversary. Coincidence???? Not only did the worms that work in the Pan Am building tell these pilots that we are relieving you of your job, we are going to ensure that you will not seek other employment until your seperation date by billing you over half of what you made.

I honestly hope that the people that run XJ and MAIR have children that work for employers just like themselves.
 
I'm confused...are you saying that they are billing the furloughed pilots or just the pilots that left before there furlough date?

Oh and don't get me wrong, either way, I think that Mesaba mgmt should die of Gonorrhea and wrought in hell for this...to tell someone that they are going to get let go, so the guy goes to find another job, then send him a bill, thats rediculous, but i could see how contractually, they could have a leg to stand on (if a training contract was signed).

This may be the most despicable thing I have ever heard though...

Really sorry to hear this guys..seriously
 
You guys screaming about personal responsibilities hit the nail on the head.

You have a responsibility to yourself, your family, and your creditors to ensure you can put a roof over your head, food on your table, and pay your bills. It's aweful hard to do any of those when you're on furlough or facing a furlough, therefore you are responsible for getting your a$$ out there and finding another job. That is what these pilots did, and now you're claiming they are irresponsible for leaving XJ before their year was up? Complete and total horse crap! Being irresponsible would be turning down a position offered to you by a different company when you're facing unemployment at your present one.
 
I think it has a lot to do with the fact that the contract will not hold up in the future unless those pilots are charged. I know it's under different circumstances than usual, however the courts may not see it that way.
 
So, uh, YPF - where'd you say you got a copy of the contract, again?
 
YourPilotFriend said:
I think it has a lot to do with the fact that the contract will not hold up in the future unless those pilots are charged. I know it's under different circumstances than usual, however the courts may not see it that way.


I don't buy it. Did you read the article? Tom W. said in the past 17 years, never had anyone been forced to pay. And they pick NOW to start enforcing it? Riiiigghht... No, I think mgmt was trying to send a message to its current pilots. They want them to believe they have absolute control over them. But I don't think they were counting on this going so public.

As for the pilots who are facing possible fees, I cannot express the anger I feel on your behalf. I could have easily been one of them. However, there is a little good in all this bad. I have received numerous phone calls from non-flying friends and family asking if I am affected by this and expressing disgust with XJ's mgmt for trying to pull such a stunt. I respond saying this actually pretty typical on how they treat us. Hopefully, this will be a wake up call to the public about how slimy airline mgmt actually are.
 
ImbracableCrunk said:
So, uh, YPF - where'd you say you got a copy of the contract, again?
I have access to every single contract in the NWA system; corporate, pilot, fa, etc.
 
YourPilotFriend said:
I have access to every single contract in the NWA system; corporate, pilot, fa, etc.

So lemme get this straight - you have access to a training contract at Mesaba? And you're a NW pilot? That strikes me as odd.

How does a NW pilot have access to all contracts?
 
ImbracableCrunk said:
How does a NW pilot have access to all contracts?

Um, let's see ... He walks into the Field Office and opens the right file drawer?
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom