Evaluating the Falcon 50

[Heavy Set]

My boss is considering buying an older model Falcon 50 as an addition to our fleet (couple of older Lears - can you see a trend...). Falcon 50EX is not likely considering the price point (I have seen some price estimates) and we are now in the very early stage of looking at older models.

I realize the cabin is not so big but the boss is fixating on the supposed 3-engine safety. We may do limited travel to Europe and Hawaii and the extra engine makes a difference in his mind. Personally, I am hoping we can find one with EFIS, nice FMS, etc. so that it is not so dated.

For those of you who fly or have flown older FA50s (not the EX version), what do you like and dislike about the aircraft? How do you like the performance vs. what you have flown in the past? Is it comfortable up front - how long before your legs lose circulation? Any examples of its versatility in terms of range and performance?

Thanks for any input. Again, we are in the very early stages of looking at the FA50. Personally, I would prefer it to the Lear I currently fly.

 

[falconpilot]

The 50 is a great aircraft.. Ours has the upgraded engines so it performs really well... For example.. I came back to MSY from TEB lastnight.. I went strait to FL380 sat there for about 45 min and went to FL450. I had the fuel flows back to a little less than 1800lbs and a hour and we were doing .80-.81 mach. BFLs are better than any airplane in its class, and it will do about 3000nm. We took it to Russia a couple of weeks ago, and came back from Moscow with 2 stops. Keflavik, and then Bangor for customs. Its not to cramped up from to me at all, but Im not very tall either. Operating cost are reasonable and comparable with everything else out there in its class. We're looking for a 900 so ours may be up for sale for the right price. PM me for detailed info..

 

[rice]

You won't find a better domestic airplane out there. That said the cabin is a bit tight for a transcon unless you go with 4 or less pax. Anything under 4 hours and its fine. Perf. wise it'll do anything you'd ever want it to do with ease except cruise above FL 410. Do yourself a favor and either get one cheap and bring it up to date or find one thats had all the necessary work (can you say P-RNAV) done to it. I know there are many older 50's out there with the GNS-XLS boat anchors and old type INS's still in them. That's not gonna work in the EU soon and it won't be long before its required in the US.

 

[johnsonrod]

I suppose you could always buy an older FA50 (with complete analog cockpit) and then install a more advanced system like the ProLine later...

 

[Lead Sled]

I suppose you could always buy an older FA50 (with complete analog cockpit) and then install a more advanced system like the ProLine later...

We just did that very thing. Ours has the Proline 21 and the DEECs. It's an amazing airplane for what we have invested. FWIW, the Proline 21 seems to be the wave of the future - over 10% of the "straight 50" fleet either has it installed or is schedule to receive it.

LS

 

[johnsonrod]

What's the average range of a Falcon 50 with 3-4 pax and normal baggage? Can it easily make LA to Hawaii in "normal" winds?

 

[Lead Sled]

What's the average range of a Falcon 50 with 3-4 pax and normal baggage? Can it easily make LA to Hawaii in "normal" winds?

The 50 is a pretty remarkable airplane. We can fill every seat in the house, top off the tanks, load all of the baggage they could carry and we're still around 1000 lbs under maximum takeoff weight. Give us a 5,000' runway (at SL) and we're good for Hawaii practically any given day of the year.

LS

 

[Kingairrick]

I would say I agree with all of the above, and second the crappy cruise above FL400. Also, climb can suck in the high 20s until you switch over to Mach at FL320.
That being said, our normal op for the 50 is Florida to SFO, at all time of the year. We've never had to stop for fuel, always fly at .80 or faster. I'm 5'11 and 210, cockpit is fine for me. I've done 6:20 without getting up to stretch or pee.

 

[falconpilot]

Are you guys flying 50s with the 3D engines?? I cruise ours above 41 all the time and still do .80+ and true around 445 at FL450... Now Im not saying that Im doing that topped off or anything, but like I said before, I came back from TEB with 4 pax full baggage and 9500 lbs of fuel and went straight to FL380 then to FL450. I was probably about 29,000lbs when I went to FL450 and I think it does really well... I was pretty impressed with the performance of this 50.. I came from the 900B and the 50EX so I was expecting that the straight 50 was going to be a pig. And granted I did some contract work on one that didn't have the 3D engines, and it was a pig... So that being said, if you go looking for a 50, find one with the eng upgrade...

 

[Lead Sled]

Are you guys flying 50s with the 3D engines?? I cruise ours above 41 all the time and still do .80+ and true around 445 at FL450... Now Im not saying that Im doing that topped off or anything, but like I said before, I came back from TEB with 4 pax full baggage and 9500 lbs of fuel and went straight to FL380 then to FL450. I was probably about 29,000lbs when I went to FL450 and I think it does really well... I was pretty impressed with the performance of this 50.. I came from the 900B and the 50EX so I was expecting that the straight 50 was going to be a pig. And granted I did some contract work on one that didn't have the 3D engines, and it was a pig... So that being said, if you go looking for a 50, find one with the eng upgrade...

You're probably using temperature to set power and ignoring the N1 cruise charts. FWIW, it's not something that we do. The -Ds use the same power charts as the -Cs.

LS

 

[falconpilot]

What's the average range of a Falcon 50 with 3-4 pax and normal baggage? Can it easily make LA to Hawaii in "normal" winds?

Let me also add that you can do LA to Hawaii all day long and do it without a "wet foot print"..

 

[falconpilot]

You're probably using temperature to set power and ignoring the N1 cruise charts. FWIW, it's not something that we do. The -Ds use the same power charts as the -Cs.

LS

Negative my friend... We always use the climb chart... And if my memory serves me correctly I never get above 98.5 to 98.7 ever in the climb... Our left enging runs a little hotter than the rest so I limit it to 860 degrees and sync the rest of the engines to that eng in the climb, which never exceeds N1.. After I get out of about FL300 and set 2 and 3 to whatever climb N1 is and still limit #1 to 860 which is normally about a percent to 1.5 percent less. The other engines (2 and 3) never even get close to that temp while at normal N1 settings. You are allowed up to 98.2 to 99.7 at FL450 depending on temp obviously.. We operate out of MSY so its always hotter than blazes down here with 95 percent humidity... Also the C eng is limited to 849 degrees in cruise.. Whereas the 3D engine is not.. Correct me if I am wrong about that.. I can't remember all the numbers sometimes.

 

[Lead Sled]

Let me also add that you can do LA to Hawaii all day long and do it without a "wet foot print"..

At school a few months back we had Jeppesen run a flight plan from SAN to HI. We caluclated the effects of 2 engine failures - each at the "worst" possible point in the flight. We ended up at 10,000' on one engine and landing at HNL with 4000# of fuel. That was pretty impressive.

Falconpilot, I sorry to have come across the way I did. I love the guys who around based on temps without regard to N1s.

LS

 

[falconpilot]

At school a few months back we had Jeppesen run a flight plan from SAN to HI. We caluclated the effects of 2 engine failures - each at the "worst" possible point in the flight. We ended up at 10,000' on one engine and landing at HNL with 4000# of fuel. That was pretty impressive.

Falconpilot, I sorry to have come across the way I did. I love the guys who around based on temps without regard to N1s.

LS

No apologies... Dont sweat it bro.. I wasnt trying to sound arguementative in any way.. Thats really cool about the flight planning to PHNL.

 

[LJ45]

Amen brother

 

[HMR]

Are you guys flying 50s with the 3D engines?? I cruise ours above 41 all the time and still do .80+ and true around 445 at FL450...

Wow! Care to share how you're getting that performance? What are you using for climb and cruise power settings?

 

[Kingairrick]

Ours is a straight 50, no engine upgrade. We can only get good perf above 41 when it's cold.
Interesting, our #1 engine runs about 15 degrees hotter than the others too.
That IS cool about the flight plan to HI...We have a 900EX for that though

 

[falconpilot]

Wow! Care to share how you're getting that performance? What are you using for climb and cruise power settings?

Ok here is my two cents for what its worth.. And I am by no means an expert, but here is how I fly the airplane.. Now obviously climb performance is based on ISA temps, so when the temps cooperate everything works out great...Now..I was taught by an old salty falcon capt that the more you "load" the wing up on a Falcon the better it performs.. Im sure alot of you already know that. I have had the oportunity to fly all the Falcons except the 2000. The most important tool that I think you can have in the cockpit as far as performance goes is the AOA... I never let the plane get off what I call the "step". If you can keep the AOA around 2.0 through 2.5 then the airplane will stay on step and will climb as high as you want it to, and accelerate quickly once you level off.. If it starts to get above 2.5-3.0 you have fallen off the "step" and your doing more harm than good.. I will usually hand fly the plane to about 10,000 then turn the autopilot on and climb with IAS set at 260 - 300kts depending on what I am trying to do. If you want the fuel performance then climb at 260 until .67 out of about FL330 climb at .72 and always watch the AOA... You can be at .72 mach and the AOA be higher than 2.5 which in my opinion is not good. I was told that the quicker you can engage the autopilot during a long climb (i.e.15,000 to FL360 or something like that) the better performace you will get in the long run.. At first I thought that was b.s., but if you have a good autopilot I think there is alot of truth to that now. You'd be suprised how much better the autopilot keeps things stabilized.. Constant pitch variations during a climb hinder performance.(JMO) Once again our airplane is a 3D engine airplane, and its not a collins avionics airplane.. It is one of the 13 that came from the factory with Honeywell / Sperry avionics.. Same EFIS and autopilot as the 900B, with just a few variations in the autopilot. I say that because our autopilot works very well in IAS and MACH hold. Some other autopilots chase it around. I assume most of you flight plan 3, 2, 2. Or maybe 3,2,1900 for your fuel burns.. Which is what I do to. But the plane seems to always do better than that.. Would you believe me if I told you that I flew yesterday out of LZU to MSY went straight to FL400 and only burned a little more than 2700lbs in a 1+25 hour flight. The flight is not normally that long but there was alot of weather around ATL area yesterday. Let me also add that I just kept it a .80 mach. To make a long story short. Try flying the AOA between 2.0 and 2.5 in the climb and see what happens.. If it works for you let me know... ONCE AGAIN IM AM NO EXPERT ON AERODYNAMICS OR FALCON 50s.. I just fly alot and I like to try different things. Let me also add that I always use the N1 charts from FSI for climb.. For cruise I usually just keep it .80 mach. And I always try to go as high as I can to save fuel.. Between FL360 and FL450 (depending on ISA) you may loose 15-20 kts true. To me thats not too bad. Just FYI a quick way to know what ISA is at your altitude is to double your altitude and subtract 15. (ex @FL350 ISA= -55) or just look at your FMS if it has that capability. Atleast thats what I have seen.. Thats my two cents... If you fly a 50EX then throw all this out the window, set the trottles to the little tick marks on the gauges and go like hell.

 

[LJ45]

Isa

I always found it interesting that ISA is a constant -56.5 from FL370 up to FL510

 

[Lead Sled]

I always found it interesting that ISA is a constant -56.5 from FL370 up to FL510

Now if some one would just explain the concept of ISA to Ma Nature and convince her to stick to it life would oh so much easier.