ETP - equal time point questions for Cargo ops.

[1800rvr]

Please reply to this request for information !!!!!!


Hello from Miami.

I just completed recurrent training here in Miami. I was told by a GS instructor that cargo carriers of 2, 3, and 4 engine a/c are NOT !!!! required to use or have an ETP on their computer flight plans for dispatch on any domestic or international flight, regardless of the flight being overwater, polar, etc.

I say horse hockey !!!!!!!!

However, the FAR's change all the time, so I could be wrong.

I have searched all over the FAR's; domestic, flag and supplemental, aircraft performance, dispatch/flight release, definations, etc and cannot find the wording that requires an ETP to be calculated, and used.

Guy's, where is the FAR that REQUIRES an ETP to be computed and used.

Please submit a reply, with the correct reference FAR or ICAO regulation.

I have also posted this question on the FAR's section of this website.

Thanks.


1800rvr

 

[propsarebest]

ETP's are required whenever you are more than 90 minutes away from a suitable airport. At my place, we run 3 ETP cases, 3 engine, 2 engine and lo level (pressurization loss)

note that the go/no go point may be different for each case.

see 121.646

 

[CaptSeth]

Also, I'm pretty sure ETOPS exists in the form of an advisory circular as opposed to FAR's. Three and four engine passenger aircraft have to conform to the same dispatch requirements now, pretty much. Cargo I have no idea about.

 

[xspud]

The answer is pretty involved, I can give some more pieces to the puzzle. 121.161 is the starting point.

Cargo aircraft with more than 2 engines may operate beyond 180 minutes from an adequate airport--121.161(a)(1). They do not have to comply with 121 Appendix P (Requirements for ETOPS and Polar Operations).

2 engine aircraft must comply with 121 Appendix P whether cargo or passenger ops--121.161(a)(1). Twins are ETOPS when operating beyond 60 minutes from an adequate airport.

3 & 4 engine pax aircraft must comply with ETOPS when flying beyond 180 minutes from an adequate airport--121.161(a)(1).

Equal time points are calculated to determine "critical fuel scenario" requirements of 121.646. 121.646(a)(1-3) applies to aircraft with more than 2 engines (pax or cargo) operating beyond 90 minutes from an adequate airport. These aircraft have to comply with a rapid decompression/oxygen supply diversion fuel scenario that is based on "the most critical point" in the route. The fuel reserves are required and I'm not sure how the minimum fuel could be determined without using an ETP calculation. I'm not aware of any requirement that the "most critical point" be defined on a flight release, navlog or plotting chart. It may be technically correct to say that there is no requirement "to use or have an ETP on their computer flight plans" in this case of cargo aircraft with more than 2 engines. However, the "most critical point" will have to be determined in the flight planning process in order to comply with minimum fuel requirements which are required on the flight release--121.687 or 121.689.

AC-42B covers ETOPS and Polar Operations. As mentioned above, ETOPS applies to all twins beyond 60 minutes whether pax or cargo. The guidance in this AC requires ETP's as part of the flight planning process. The aircraft operator certification and evaluation process will ultimately ensure that all operators comply with the AC guidance. It seems unlikely to me that any operator will get approval for ETOPS without including ETP information in the computer flight plan.

 

[BayBum37ft]

A few years ago a British Air 747 lost an engine before coast out and they continued across the Atlantic to LHR. So I assume no ETP's.

Hey CaptSeth, can't believe its been 3 years.

BayBum38ft

 

[propsarebest]

You can continue with one or two engines out (assuming you are on a 4 engine airplane). The ETP points are there so that you have a suitable airport to go to if something happens. If you are before your ETP point and you loose it, you go back. If you are past the point, you go the airport on the other side.

Having said that, you can have you destination as your downwind ETP airport. In fact, in that case, the airfield doesn't have to meet alternate mins, just destination mins.

 

[HA25]

ETP's are there like alternates (they basically are alternates) for PLANING purposes... the CA can do what he decides.. including continue or return after ETP if fuel permits.

With that said, we have the 3 (loss of pressure, loss of 1 engine, loss of 2 engines) and we plot the loss of 1 engine on the chart... that's required by the FAA (our FSDO), and in our GOM.. therefore it's law.

 

[dojetdriver]

A few years ago a British Air 747 lost an engine before coast out and they continued across the Atlantic to LHR. So I assume no ETP's.

Hey CaptSeth, can't believe its been 3 years.

BayBum38ft

You can continue with one or two engines out (assuming you are on a 4 engine airplane). The ETP points are there so that you have a suitable airport to go to if something happens. If you are before your ETP point and you loose it, you go back. If you are past the point, you go the airport on the other side.

Having said that, you can have you destination as your downwind ETP airport. In fact, in that case, the airfield doesn't have to meet alternate mins, just destination mins.

If it's the one I think BayBum is talking about, I believe it took off from the west coast of the U.S., went out and held while the crew talked to their dispatch and ran the numbers. After spending time holding, the decision was made to continue to London. Naturally, at a lower altitude AND burning more gas. Again, if it's the one I'm thinking of, they had to land in Manchester due to the fuel state.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article1083314.ece

 

[GittinFatter]

lets seperate a few things; ETOPS= extended TWIN engine OPS. those rules do not apply to 3 or 4 engine airplanes. ETP's (equal time point) for 3 or 4 engine airplanes are predicated on the loss of 2 (TWO) engines. If we shuck ONE, we can continue, if in our minds, its as safe or safer than returning to the departure airport or a planned divert airport. We have 3 ETP's on our over water flight plans, loss of two engines, loss of press. and a medical emergency.

 

[uhdt]

lets seperate a few things; ETOPS= extended TWIN engine OPS. those rules do not apply to 3 or 4 engine airplanes. ETP's (equal time point) for 3 or 4 engine airplanes are predicated on the loss of 2 (TWO) engines. If we shuck ONE, we can continue, if in our minds, its as safe or safer than returning to the departure airport or a planned divert airport. We have 3 ETP's on our over water flight plans, loss of two engines, loss of press. and a medical emergency.

Suggest you look at AC120-42B. Chapter 2 (Background on ETOPS) is a good place to start. For 3 or more engine aircraft, there are ETOPS requirements when greater than 180 min from a suitable airport. -42B was issued June 2008.
EROPS (Extended Range Operations) was a term that was being considered, however ETOPS has been in use since 1985, and as such the FAA stayed with it.