"Err... Roger that Memphis Center... Sorry 'bout that."

[CameronW]

First of all, the intent of this post isn't to flame or insult Memphis Center. I am however curious if those of you in civilian aviation can relate to what we (the B-52 community) have experienced working with them, or if the treatment we tend to get in thier airspace is triggered when they see H/B-52/I on the strip (ie, is it us in particular that pisses em off?).

I could provide a lot of specific examples, but for now I'll keep it general. Generally speaking, we get a lot of rudeness and hostility in Memphis's airspace. If we're slow to check in, read back a clearance wrong, miss part of a clearance and ask them to repeat the part we missed (or the part that was stepped on), step on VHF traffic by calling them on UHF (we spend 90% of our time on the radios on UHF), etc, etc, at best we can expect an angry tone of voice or a transmission dripping with sarcasm. Often times we'll get our asses ripped right there over the radio. This isn't just from recent observation either- it's been going on since before I started flying B-52's 4 years ago.

I've been tempted to think that because of how busy they are, they just don't have time to deal with the slightest mistake or bad radio call, and their behavior simply reflects the stressful nature of their job. However, our training profiles often take us all over the nation into ARTCC's that are arguably much busier than Memphis. (Fort Worth, LA, etc), and everywhere else we go, the controllers are always professional, polite, and when need be, patient.

Anyone care to comment or add?

If anyone here happens to work for Memphis Center, is there anything we can do to improve our relationship with you guys? Naturally, we do our best not to make you guys mad at us, but please realize that with the high turnover we have in military aviation (with regular transfers, retirements, seperations, etc), there is always "training in progress" on every CONUS training sortie we launch, and more often than not, that B-52 guy who can't seem to check in properly or who messes up his clearance is a brand new copilot who's fresh out of pilot training, and is new to dealing with a busy ARTCC.

Best regards,

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Document the time and frequency of the occurence and ask for the phone number to the supervisors desk. Ask that the tape be pulled and reviewed by the supervisor and that at copy of the tape along with a transcription be forwarded to your operations officer. If it is indeed the controller's problem request the supe to take appropriate action as you are not going to be subject to that kind of behavior on the frequency.

An 18 yr controller.

 

[CameronW]

Thanks Chris. We actually maintain a listing of the supervisor's desk phone numbers for all the ARTCC's in the United States. I've come close to calling in a complaint a few times, but ended up talking myself out if it, thinking things like "it's not worth the trouble" and/or "what good will it do?"

The last such time was two weeks ago. We were heading home to Barksdale following a mission off the East coast. To expedite our trip home, I decided to request direct Barksdale. It went like this:

"Memphis Center, DOOM 91 request direct Barksdale"

(very agitated tone of voice) "DOOM 91, STANDBY. Other aircraft calling center, go ahead." (we were on UHF, he was talking to traffic on VHF)

"No complaints at three-three-oh... Roger, Delta 469 climb and maintain flight level three-three-oh, expidite through two-nine-oh."

(a few minutes passed)

"(static) 91, cleared direct Barksdale."

(thinking the clearance was for me) "Roger, DOOM 91 cleared direct Barksdale."

(very, loud angry tone) "OK, DOOM 91 (pause, loud sigh), that wasn't even for YOU. That was for company aircraft. Maintain present course, I'll get to your request when you're clear off traffic. You really need to listen up." (he never did get to the request, btw)

What he said might not seem so bad, but it is difficult to express the venom and hostility in that man's voice. I found it unprofessional to say the least. I think we made a simple and understandable mistake in reading back someone else's clearance (who had a similar callsign) that didn't warrant such hostility.

What actually prompted this post, is that this past Thursday, we decided to use VHF frequencies vs our standard of using UHF, and we ran into the same controller again. We overheard a couple airliners read back thier clearances incorrectly, and one forget to check in, and they were getting the same sort of treatment we're accustomed to getting from Memphis. What I found interesting is that these guys were taking it almost as a matter of course, and responding to this controller cheerfully, almost as if they're used to it.

That's when it occurred to me that maybe it's not "just us."

 

[ATCER]

CameronW - Check your PM's ...

 

[350DRIVER]

we get a lot of rudeness and hostility in Memphis's airspace. If we're slow to check in, read back a clearance wrong, miss part of a clearance and ask them to repeat the part we missed (or the part that was stepped on),

Are you kidding?
I think it is safe to say that if you do the above in most sectors that you will not make many friends and get the same responses. Try checking in late, screwing up a clearance, stepping on others a few times during the busier times of the day going in or out of JFK, LAX, PHX, ORD, etc, and most likely you are going to get the same "unfriendly" and "rude" treatment. This is nothing new and nothing is going to change, you can call the Pope, St. Peter, etc, and most likely the outcome will continue to be the same. Do the best that you can do and don't let it get to you since in reality you aren't going to change anything by calling a supervisor and complaining.

You will get no special treatment just due to the fact that you are flying a B-52 around, doesn't matter what equipment you are in, you could be in a C172 and no one would give a rat's a$$.

3 5 0

 

[CameronW]

Are you kidding?
I think it is safe to say that if you do the above in most sectors that you will not make many friends and get the same responses. Try checking in late, screwing up a clearance, stepping on others a few times during the busier times of the day going in or out of JFK, LAX, PHX, ORD, etc, and most likely you are going to get the same "unfriendly" and "rude" treatment. This is nothing new and nothing is going to change, you can call the Pope, St. Peter, etc, and most likely the outcome will continue to be the same. Do the best that you can do and don't let it get to you since in reality you aren't going to change anything by calling a supervisor and complaining.

You will get no special treatment just due to the fact that you are flying a B-52 around, doesn't matter what equipment you are in, you could be in a C172 and no one would give a rat's a$$.

3 5 0

I think you kind of misunderstood what I'm getting at. I don't want or expect special treatment because I'm flying a B-52. No offense, but the very notion is ridiculous. I expect the exact same treatment that everyone else gets, and I expect that treatment to be professional at all times. All I was trying to get across when I talked about all the new copilots we have is point out one of the reasons why these mistakes sometimes occur.

The mistakes I cited in my post were simply broad examples of the sort of things that they really pounce on. If you noticed, I said we fly through just about every center in the country, and ZME is the only center that seems to act that way. Also, from listening up on VHF, I've seen that we aren't the only one's who make those kind of mistakes from time to time. Transmissions get stepped on, distractions in the cockpit can occur, and sometimes it's possible to hear a clearance that you think is for you due to a similar callsign, etc. Those aren't reasons to lose your temper and lash out- it goes with the territory. What I'm talking about is consistantly rude treatment that I've noticed, which doesn't necessarily seem to correspond to the controller's traffic load.

Furthermore, when we're talking on UHF, we have absolutely no way of knowing that Delta whoever is calling them on VHF at the same time. Not all of our jets are even equipped with a VHF radio. Again, not a reason to act unprofessionally.

 

[BoilerUP]

Dam 350, the man just asked a legit question. He never indicated that he thought he deserved or warranted "special" treatment, just wanted to know if Memphis controllers were always so high-strung and irritated, or just with Buffs.

I agree that controllers don't have the time or patience to deal with rookies in busy airspace, but EVERYBODY screws up now and then, including controllers. Its one thing to be a moron on the radio, another thing to make an honest mistake, and completely another to be a power-tripping @sshole looking at a radar screen.

Cameron, I had a NATCA official at Oshkosh (when I asked a similar question) tell me to request the operator's initials and approach/center phone # over the freq then call on the ground and talk to the supervisor on duty to see what both sides can do better. His exact words to me - "We screw up just as much as pilots, and if we can learn from each other's mistakes, it makes everything safer. We are here to help." And remember, there's usually at least one @sshole in each major ATC facility, just ask the people here about the lady at LGA...

 

[CameronW]

Cameron, I had a NATCA official at Oshkosh (when I asked a similar question) tell me to request the operator's initials and approach/center phone # over the freq then call on the ground and talk to the supervisor on duty to see what both sides can do better. His exact words to me - "We screw up just as much as pilots, and if we can learn from each other's mistakes, it makes everything safer. We are hear to help." And remember, there's usually at least one @sshole in each major ATC facility, just ask the people here about the lady at LGA...

That's exactly the kind of advice I'm looking for. If there's a way we can improve our relationship with ZME, that's exactly what I'm looking for. If there's something we can do on our end to achieve that end, I'm all for it. Unfortunatly, we don't have the option of staying out of their airspace, and the only way to train our "rookies" on how to talk to center on the radio is to give them the basics and let them practice (so mistakes are always going to happen). I would be happy to establish some kind of mutual understanding with them and find a way for us to work together professionally. We have a good working relationship with the other ARTCC's we frequent, and I'd really like it if we didn't have to grimace every time we get handed off to ZME.

 

[350DRIVER]

I think you kind of misunderstood what I'm getting at. I don't want or expect special treatment because I'm flying a B-52. No offense, but the very notion is ridiculous. I expect the exact same treatment that everyone else gets, and I expect that treatment to be professional at all times. All I was trying to get across when I talked about all the new copilots we have is point out one of the reasons why these mistakes sometimes occur.

The mistakes I cited in my post were simply broad examples of the sort of things that they really pounce on. If you noticed, I said we fly through just about every center in the country, and ZME is the only center that seems to act that way. Also, from listening up on VHF, I've seen that we aren't the only one's who make those kind of mistakes from time to time. Transmissions get stepped on, distractions in the cockpit can occur, and sometimes it's possible to hear a clearance that you think is for you due to a similar callsign, etc. Those aren't reasons to lose your temper and lash out- it goes with the territory. What I'm talking about is consistantly rude treatment that I've noticed, which doesn't necessarily seem to correspond to the controller's traffic load.

Furthermore, when we're talking on UHF, we have absolutely no way of knowing that Delta whoever is calling them on VHF at the same time. Not all of our jets are even equipped with a VHF radio. Again, not a reason to act unprofessionally.

I don't think I misunderstood anything that you posted. You asked the question(s) and I gave you my response whether you liked it or not. Minus the radio issue you are not treated any different than any other aircraft transitioning through that specific airspace, that was the point that I was trying to make. IF the very notion was ridiculous then why did you have to make it known that you are flying a B-52? Does it really matter? Are we suppose to show pity or envy? Do or did you expect things on a silver platter? You say no, ok fair enough but once again they do not care whether or not you are flying the 52, 73, A-319, etc, if you push the wrong buttons, screw up, slow the system down, etc, then you are going to hear about it on freq., bottom line. Apparently you must be living in a different world than the one that I reside in since I frequently hear ATC getting a little impatient with those who tie the system up, and they let them have it. Once again, listen to approach control at LAX, ORD, DFW, JFK, on a busy day, it isn't all fun and games. Most controllers are great and will work with you, others will be less friendly, oh well that is life so deal with it and move on.

I am a tad surprised that you are only having a problem with that sector or airspace if you indeed do fly all over the country, dunno what to tell you on that one. I understand where you are coming from on the radio issue(s) and the problems that they may create for you.

Dam 350, the man just asked a legit question. He never indicated that he thought he deserved or warranted "special" treatment, just wanted to know if Memphis controllers were always so high-strung and irritated, or just with Buffs.

And I simply gave him my response, nothing more and nothing less.


3 5 0

as a side note: I have flown into MEM many times in the past and never once did I ever have a problem and I thought they were extremely professional and did everything in their power to make things flow very smoothly.

 

[CameronW]

IF the very notion was ridiculous then why did you have to make it known that you are flying a B-52?

Because the question I was asking was whether everyone gets the same treatment, or just B-52's. Due to our geographic location, we fly through MEM/ZME's airspace every day. It's crossed the mind that maybe they're just sick of those darn B-52's from Barksdale.

Does it really matter? Are we suppose to show pity or envy?

Did I imply that anyone's supposed to show pity or envy? I just decided to share the experience of my particular flying community and see if anyone outside our community has noticed the same sort of thing.

Do or did you expect things on a silver platter? You say no, ok fair enough but once again they do not care whether or not you are flying the 52, 73, A-319, etc, if you push the wrong buttons, screw up, slow the system down, etc, then you are going to hear about it on freq., bottom line.

Indeed- I wasn't trying to imply otherwise.

Apparently you must be living in a different world than the one that I reside in since I frequently hear ATC getting a little impatient with those who tie the system up, and they let them have it.

Different world? In a manner of speaking, yes. Relevant? Not really. However, different though our worlds may be, I bet we fly though many of the same sectors. There are sometimes reasons to let someone have it. I don't think it's appropiate for certain controllers in a particular sector to yell at someone on freq every chance they get, whether the provoking factor was big or small.

I am a tad surprised that you are only having a problem with that sector or airspace if you indeed do fly all over the country, dunno what to tell you on that one. I understand where you are coming from on the radio issue(s) and the problems that they may create for you.

That one sector isn't the only sector that has ever bitched us out for something we did or didn't do. It is the only sector that consistantly does so in a manner that I often find less than professional.

as a side note: I have flown into MEM many times in the past and never once did I ever have a problem and I thought they were extremely professional and did everything in their power to make things flow very smoothly.

Thanks- that's really the kind of feedback I was looking for. I don't have any complaints about most of the controllers over there. It's my feeling that there are a few in particular that just don't like us, and if that's the case, then maybe there is something I can do to help smooth things over. I may be totally off-base in that feeling, which is kind of why I posted this thread.

Edit: BTW, 350, I do really appreciate your responses and the fact that you took the time to help answer my questions. Thanks man.

 

[KingAirer]

Cameron, for what I understand, ZME is somewhat understaffed and does more than the typical UHF and simultaneous VHF traffic.

 

[CameronW]

Cameron, for what I understand, ZME is somewhat understaffed and does more than the typical UHF and simultaneous VHF traffic.

If that's the case, I'm more than understanding of that. Working more than one radio simultaneously on my aircraft (as we often have to do, especially in the operational environment) is challenging enough. I can't imagine what a pain it must be for a busy ARTCC, especially one that is short on people.

If after speaking with them, I find out that does cause significant additional stress or work for them, I can suggest to my squadron and the other Buff squadrons on base that we use VHF (assuming their aircraft is equipped) when dealing with ZME. We've got reasons for preferring UHF, but I don't see why we wouldn't be able to help one particular sector out in that way.

 

[DAS at 10/250]

350Driver

Dude, I never thought you were a complete a@@hole until now. Thank goodness I don't have to share a cockpit with you. Good luck on those anger issues.

CameronW, good luck, and ignore 350Ahole.

 

[CameronW]

Dude, I never thought you were a complete a@@hole until now. Thank goodness I don't have to share a cockpit with you. Good luck on those anger issues.

CameronW, good luck, and ignore 350Ahole.

I don't have a problem with 350's responses. He was frank and honest about his opinion, and I can respect that. I didn't post this expecting everyone to agree or sympathize. I posted to get feedback from some of my fellow aviators and controllers before deciding, what, if anything, could be done to improve our working relationship with this particular sector. Any feedback is welcome.

 

[Birdstrike]

350, if you don't get help at Charter, get help someplace. You have some serious issues.

 

[dash8driver]

Decaf coffee tastes just as good as the real thing these days......

 

[HAZ-MAT]

Just from my experience from flying out of there for the past year and a half...
You have Columbus AFB traffic that is being controlled out in the MOA's by ZME. That adds a lot of UHF traffic congestion on the freq. Many of times I would have to make numerous transmissions, because someone was talking at the same time as me, but on UHF. Now thats a training base for initial Air Force pilots... they just went from a C172 into a Tweet. I can understand the mistakes that they'll make, but that adds to the controllers frustration, and i can hear it over the radio when there are numerous transmissions to reach "Nail77" ..ect..
So maybe the time of day that your flying in their airspace, they have a lot going on... Northwest banks coming in.. FedEx afternoon departures... All the Tweets and T1's in the MOA's, and then all those good ole boys trying to get VFR flight following in and out of all those small airports. He's got a lot on his scope!!
So anyways... it sounds like they're understaffed.. some of those guys have been there for many years (I've asked) and its the job thats getting to them... I wouldnt take it personal, its just the way it is. Maybe.. the guy washed out of B-52 class and ended up being a controller for the military for many years.. and gets annoyed when he hears you flying around in something that he should be in!!!!

 

[CameronW]

Students out of CBM is certainly a good point and one that I hadn't considered yet. I'm sure that's the one group that bones up the radios even worse than we do. lol

Hopefully us military guys can come up with a way to cause those center controllers fewer headaches.

 

[MarineGrunt]

I'm sure that's the one group that bones up the radios even worse than we do. lol.

Ouch... that hurts man... that really hurts...

 

[de727ups]

CameronW

I've had experiences with the morning shift at GEG being snippy. Anything unusual can set off a guy in a crappy mood. I got yelled at the other day for leaving ground control for tower without being told. Common practice most of the time but they were trying to run things different that day because of an unusual runway configuation. Guess I was supposed to read the guys mind....

In general, I think controllers are overworked and underappreciated and I cut them a lot of slack. It would help them to ride along with us and it would help us to sit through a shift with them. I'm lucky I worked at LAX approach control for a year, so I've seen ATC stuff from both sides.

I can see how you guys being on UHF and everyone else on VHF can make life difficult for ATC. If you can, I'd try to use the VHF radios as much as possible. It would improve everyone's ability to see the "big picture" in the sector if they can hear you.

Asking for the facility phone number and controllers operating initials will get a controllers attention. It might make him think twice about being overly vocal about his "venting" on frequency.