• NC Software is proud to announce the release of APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook version 10.0. Click here to view APDL on the Apple App store and install now.

Equity in Flow Control

Just thinking

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 6, 2005
Posts
348
Total Time
>1<10K
Lowest On-Time Arrival Rates for August

1. Atlantic Southeast Airlines – 59.6 percent
2. AirTran Airways – 64.1 percent
3. Northwest Airlines – 67.2 percent
Most Frequently Delayed Flights

1. Alaska Airlines flight 153 from Nome, AK to Anchorage, AK – late 96.77 percent of the time
2. AirTran Airways flight 315 from Charlotte, NC to Atlanta – late 96.55 percent of the time
3. Atlantic Southeast Airlines flight 4267 from Ashville, NC to Atlanta – late 95.65 percent of the time
4. American Airlines flight 473 from Atlanta to Dallas-Fort Worth – late 95.45 percent of the time
4. American Airlines flight 1111 from Atlanta to Dallas-Fort Worth – late 95.45 percent of the time

Highest Rates of Canceled Flights

1. Atlantic Southeast Airlines – 8.0 percent
2. American Eagle Airlines – 3.1 percent
3. Delta Air Lines – 3.1 percent


From my humble experiences, it seems as if there is not equitable treatment when handing out the flow control. Any insight out there in the process that is utilized to determine who gets what and for how long? I know that there are numerous dispatchers that read this forum and they may be able to answer these questions with more authority. Definitely impact FL's numbers due to follow on flights that are delayed due to incoming aircraft. I would like to have a more concrete explanation to give to the customer waiting for 315 to depart CLT other than TRACON issues the flow control based upon inbound aircraft and their departure location and ETA.... Is 96.55% of the time fair and equitable treatment?
August was a bad month for FL in Atlanta as well as a lot of other carriers but flow control accounted for 24.23% of our delays into Atlanta and 10.54% or our delays were due to aircraft arriving late.

I had posted this on the Majors board and was told that there was a new Dispatch section. Could anyone please shed some light on this situation? There are other flights that leave CLT +/- 1 hour of flight 315 that are not listed as being late >95% of the time. CLT is within Atlanta's sector.... does that make it easier to impose a delay versus a departure airport elsewhere due to less coordination requirements? Does FL's dispatch have any say in what flights are delayed? What kind of horse trading goes on between ATC, and various airline dispatchers? I just want to be able to speak with a greater level of understanding when speaking with frustrated customers.

Just thinking
 

CRJDispatchKid

Thousands served...
Joined
Aug 14, 2004
Posts
111
Total Time
Years
It's all about the Benjamin's...

Major airlines have Strategic Planners, ATC coordinators or sometimes both. These are the guys who work, monitor and negotiate with the Air Traffic Control Command Center about the implementation of Ground Stops and Ground Delays. Since I work at FLG, I personally know that NWA has some good people on their side. One man in particular can call up any Center, know exactly who he's talking to, ask about the wife and kids and then he'll slide into the conversation "hey, can you help me with this Flagship sittin’ in a hold over....". It works every time!

I'm sure any airline other than Delta gets the short end of the stick when it comes to ATL traffic. They have a monopoly of the airport. So, Center will give priority to that airline, but you're not supposed to know that! It's all about the Benjamin's ladies and gents.
 

propsarebest

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2004
Posts
1,559
Total Time
....
I'm not gonna go into details, cause you should know them, but it all boils down to which arrival the flight is filed for and how far the orgin city is.

it's that simple.

Most regionals are at the mercy of "big brother"- the major you are flying for has first rights to the slot, cause in actuality, it is THEIR slot, they just loaned it to you.
 

homerjdispatch

Gods gift to dispatch
Joined
Jul 21, 2003
Posts
1,250
Total Time
a lot
propsarebest said:
I'm not gonna go into details, cause you should know them, but it all boils down to which arrival the flight is filed for and how far the orgin city is.

it's that simple.

Most regionals are at the mercy of "big brother"- the major you are flying for has first rights to the slot, cause in actuality, it is THEIR slot, they just loaned it to you.

Right on brotha!

We take the beating to an extent at the regional level due to the fact that most flights originate and terminate in the same center. Internal ground stops ( or a screw SkyWest groundstop as we like to call it) are a very common occurence in SFO.
 

flyjumpseat

desk driver
Joined
Feb 20, 2002
Posts
158
Total Time
10+
Variables in a 'flow program':

1: Who actually owns or has rights to the slot (UA, DL, etc) That is why you may see a SkyWest or ASA flight's wheels up time get bumped forward (because of a cancelation that someone took for whoever owns that arrival slot).

2: Arrival fixes play big time into flow programs for weather. How many arrivals can the airport accept inbound over fix "A"? And if fix "B" is closed due to weather, then how many "B" fix arrivals can they squeeze into the already planned "A" fix arrivals? Think about it. You'll understand.

3: ATC Flow Control has some flexibility because they see the arrival slot times, and they can see an estimation of who will arrive early, on time, or late of their assigned slot. If they can work you in, (as CRJDispatchKid hinted to) they will do what they can - based on current and planned flight arrivals.

So you're all right to an extent. Calm down folks.
 

exactlywrong

Paper Pusher
Joined
Jan 12, 2005
Posts
34
Total Time
9 yrs
If we get any green on the radar over New Jersey... were screwed for the night. Might as well pull the plug cause after ZNY it's ZBW next.
 

Just thinking

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 6, 2005
Posts
348
Total Time
>1<10K
So is it TRACON that dictates who is assigned the delays or is it a collective agreement with it meted out on a "fair share" basis? Does an airline's operations center have any say in which flights are delayed or are they at the mercy of TRACON?

Just thinking
 

exactlywrong

Paper Pusher
Joined
Jan 12, 2005
Posts
34
Total Time
9 yrs
Well depending on the CDM desk ..if your company has one, It's actually a bargoning process. No lie, it can come down to something as simple as slot for slot. Like whose actually going to hang out of a 9 hour WUP. And THEY do happen ...any fractionals wanna chime in on that one ?

As for as Tracon ... they have no clue. They have a certain ARVL rate to deal with beyond that it's all 'get out of our face' mentality. ARTSCC's throw out the rediculous times and we begin the buddy buddy process.

That is how it is for us ... it might be different for you but I bet it's not.
 

Bart Simpson

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Posts
116
Total Time
23 hrs
exactlywrong said:
That is how it is for us ... it might be different for you but I bet it's not.

You shouldn't bet on this but rather go and play Powerball. I think its up to $340 million.
 

Morning Wood

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 16, 2001
Posts
551
Total Time
n/a
dispatcher121 said:
Hey we can relate to SFO flow! Do you guys C.A.R.P.?
Sometimes OAK center will let us...it's works well when it works.

We used to when we did PDX-SFO on the DL side. It was only
one flight and it worked out pretty slick. Loads were not usually
full, so the gas wasn't a problem. The EUG and MFR flights we
do now to SFO are usually full, so we would have to bump
passengers to do it. So we just eat the delays and hope
United and CORA doesn't mess with us too much.
 
Last edited:
Top