Engine Failure while Holding

[Stifler's Mom]

Hey guys,

Let's say you have been cleared to enter a hold, and just as you enter it (i.e. as you cross the beacon/VOR/etc), you experience an engine failure in a twin.

Is it best to continue in the turn and try to manage the a/c, or, is it better to level out and go through the procedures? What about if the engine fails prior to crossing the fix while you are already in the hold?

My only concern about levelling off would be that you could risk getting outside of your protected airspace; however, trying to secure an engine failure while you are turning would not be very easy either.

What's the best option?

Thanks in advance!

You'll have to enter the hold and stay there until your EFC Time.

 

[avbug]

REEEEAAAAALY?

So what you're saying, is that the FAR required information in the POH is intended to EXPAND product liability on behalf of the manufacturer?

Ok, I get it now.

You do not get it, and I said nothing of product liability. It was you that introduced that topic, entirely unrelated to the thread, and irrelevant to the issue.

Checklists are NOT liability issues...they are proper and appropriate and important items in the cockpit. Forget liability...they are there to serve as a tool to aid in the safe operation of the aircraft.

Only a bloody idiot would suggest that a checklist has no purpose except the mitigation of liability. But, perhaps you're right. The military, every airline, every corporation, every manufacturer, every flight department, each government agency, every flight school...they all disagree with you...but apparently you know best.

You are an amazing fellow.

 

[mar]

Actually EFC time is only for lost comm.

You'll have to enter the hold and stay there until your EFC Time.

The Happy Middle Ground re: Checklists.

Checklists do have a purpose in the cockpit and we're all familiar with that. But I'd submit that they are in fact *edited* with specific word choice to limit the manufacturer's liability. But that's not their *sole* purpose.

These are litigious (and touchy) times.

 

[FN FAL]

I wasn't antagonizing nothing. I was just asking how long do you plan on sitting there dinking around with a checklist in your hand before you let the other engine run out of gas too? Engine outages are predominantly pilot caused...maybe reading how to fly the plane in flight while in IFR is the best place to get some extra dual. After all, the angel of death won't take six months to a year to figure out the causal factors as to why you're dead...you're just dead.

Whether it was your intent or not, you give the impression that you are advocating two thing:

1) in the event of an emergency, immediately disregard IFR procedures and put the aircraft on the ground immediately by any means possible.[VMC rollover at your leisure, just don't take me out of the stack when you do]

2) Don't bother with the checklist, since it was only put there by the lawyers and is probably faulty anyway. [You're stretching my words...and if you don't think that manufacturers write their manuals from cover to cover with product liability in mind, then you are simple. Reference the PDF file further on erronious company checklist that Value Jet used...the pilots were still cited for not knowing the factory Boeing manual and their lack of systems knowledge.]

If this is not what you're saying, by all means clarify.

 

[avbug]

I hear that a lot...engine failures caused by the pilot. It happens. But in every single case of engine failure I've experienced over the years, and there have been a LOT, I have never experienced one that was the result of pilot error or pilot input (save for intentional training or precautionary shutdowns).

I've never worked anywhere that used a manufacturer checklist. We always use a company developed and approved checklist. Yes, sometimes little things could be added, and often as not I'll pick up a checklist and find someone has pencilled something in there. Perhaps they forgot a bleed switch here, or forgot something there, and made a note in the checklist.

The checklist is not the be-all and end-all of getting things done. But it's there for a reason, and that reason is not to throw the weight of the world on your shoulders and alleviate the manufacturer of liability. That liability won't go away, and the manufacturer makes a much juicier target for litigation than you. Always will. Conversely, failure to adhere to the checklist can not only hurt or kill you, but can place you in a lot of legal hot water, too. That's not the manufacturer doing, that's your doing, and something over which you have complete control.

 

[ackattacker]

I wasn't antagonizing nothing. I was just asking how long do you plan on sitting there dinking around with a checklist in your hand before you let the other engine run out of gas too? Engine outages are predominantly pilot caused...maybe reading how to fly the plane in flight while in IFR is the best place to get some extra dual. After all, the angel of death won't take six months to a year to figure out the causal factors as to why you're dead...you're just dead.

I say it again... nobody on this board is advocating holding indefinately. The post about wait till your EFC time was a joke, meant to take down the level of hostility a notch.

The question put to the board was, if the engine failure occurs at the moment that you are entering the hold, do you continue the entry or do you level out? The corrrect answer is that you continue the entry. Do it any other way on a checkride and you will fail. Do it any other way in real life and you risk collision with aircraft or terrain. You really think I'm going to Vmc roll it because I did two things at once? That's pretty insulting. The vast majority of twins will hold altitude on one engine. Even if you're flying a beat up old Apache at gross, you'll only be descending maybe 200'/min. So what's the rush?

You stated engine outtages were predominately pilot caused. In the GA world, perhaps correct, although I've seen no statistics on it. If you use the checklist it will remind you to check those things you might have forgotten, such as fuel selectors. If you rush yourself and do it the cowboy way you may do something stupid like shut down the other engine. It's been done.

You keep saying that IFR is not time to "read how to fly an airplane". Guess what, myself and hundreds of thousand of other pilots "read how to fly an airplane" a dozen times a day. I know perfectly well how to start an engine but when time comes to do it I call for the engine start checklist. When time come to land I read the before landing checklist. And if I ever have an engine failure I'm going to accomplish the memory items and then call for or read the engine failure checklist. If you do it the right way it's just another phase of flight, one that you've practiced and trained for. A lot of people get paid a lot more than you or I to think about these things and develop the training programs involved. I'm not smart enough to second guess them, but then I guess I'm not as smart as you.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Actually EFC time is only for lost comm.

I was joking. :beer: It was the only absurd thing I could relate to the initial question.

 

[Lead Sled]

So you're saying the FAA bears the liability for a faulty manufacturer's checklist that they certified and required by the FARS? And that because the FAA certified and required the checklist, that the aircraft manufacturer is let out of the liability to produce an accurate publication?

REALLY? So if the manufacturer of the aircraft provides pilots with a faulty checklist, the liability issue only arises if they are not provided the checklist or if the pilots don't use the faulty checklist?

FN FAL...
Sorry it's taken so long to respond, we've been out flying.

Actually, there's a bruhaha a brew'n as we speak with regards to a dangerous and faulty checklist that Gulfstream has published for the Astra/G100 series airplanes.

All checklists are not created equal - for simple aircraft like light twins, most piston singles, and some turboprop singles like Caravans, etc. "pneumonic" checklists like GUMPS, CIGARS, or any of the other various and sundry ones out there work just fine and thus the need for extensive written manufacturer's checklists really isn't there. However, things change as you move up the ladder - the systems in many transport category jets are quite complex and you can really get things royally screwed up in a hurry if you try to "ad-lib" a response to an emergency or abnormal situation. Currently, there is a trend among manufacturers to eliminate or minimize the memory action items in aircraft emergency and abnormal checklists.

'Sled

 

[mar]

Thanks for clearing that up.

I was joking. :beer: It was the only absurd thing I could relate to the initial question.

See? This is the trouble with the internet. The problem is, that response wasn't absurd *enough*.

I've been a CFI so I've heard some really crazy stuff before and it wouldn't surprise me if there are people out there who would subscribe to this kinda thinking.

And even though I can call "BS" on something like that, there are a lot of less experieced pilots who will look at your profile and take that statement at face value and then try to apply it.

The internet can be veeerrrrryyyyy scary sometimes.

Ciao.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

I went back and added one of those Tongue-In-Cheek smiley faces to my original joke. :nuts: