Engine Failure on crosswind

[BoDEAN]

What's the best way to teach this? I have my students turn back to the airport/runway, and land into the wind if need be, but they always seem to come in so **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** high....... Should I have them do a right 360 (instead of a left turn towards the runway) and get the plane down that way?

 

[bobbysamd]

Engine failure on crosswind

I wouldn't teach a 360. Altitude is your friend.

Why don't you try teaching them a forward slip to dissipate the excess altitude once the runway is assured?

Just an idea.

 

[BoDEAN]

Good call

Forward slip after turning towards the runway on crosswind

 

[de727ups]

You could pull the engine on them sooner. I teach straight ahead until 500 AGL and then think about turning around. Below 500 AGL and you go straight ahead....

 

[rubberducky]

In a glider (with much greater L/D max) standard procedure is to turn back into the wind and dump in spoilers, divebrakes etc, and land on the runway. A 360 is only considered in high performance gliders at low altitude.

My point, much better glide ratio in the glider than the airplane(1.5 to 2.0 the glide ratio), and a glider pilot is not even thinking about a 360. Just food for thought.

Fly Safe

 

[FlyBigE]

engine failure

What type of student are you teaching? Student/private or a higer level like a commercial.

For the the lower time guys I have always tought less than 1000' agl you are better off taking it straight ahead. Above that you may be able to make it back to the field. Depending on aircraft type of course. With higher time pilots you could lower it down to about 700' agl. Below that I don't think you could make it thru a turn.

You should teach your students to consider all the options. Is there a parallel runway they could use or any other runway that could be easly made. Tell them to consider taxiways, and service roads if they are in small planes.

If the only option is to return you better teach them that it requires a very steep turn back to the runway. If they are high their best bet is to slip the airplane.

 

[C150Commuter]

In a glider (with much greater L/D max) standard procedure is to turn back into the wind and dump in spoilers, divebrakes etc, and land on the runway. A 360 is only considered in high performance gliders at low altitude.

My point, much better glide ratio in the glider than the airplane(1.5 to 2.0 the glide ratio), and a glider pilot is not even thinking about a 360. Just food for thought.

Fly Safe

What training airplane only gets a 2:1 glide...a cessna is around 8:1....maybe I just misunderstand your post. I read a good article in flight training magazine once that talked about "the impossible turn." It meantioned 800' AGL as a minimum to turn around and if you weren't at 400' AGL when you crossed the end of the runway or airport boundary then it probably wasn't such a hot idea. Not sure what month it was, but it was interesting.

 

[rubberducky]

C150 commuter,

What I meant was that a glider has a glide ratio that is 1.5 to 2.0 times that of an airplane;

For example, a C172R has a glide ratio of 9:1, where as a Schweizer model 2-33 has about a 23:1.

My point simply being before you consider turning back or worse commencing a 360(at low altitude), you should realize the aircraft's capabilities.

The article was by Barry Schiff, and I do not remember the month/year. I do remember one important thing that I teach as a rule of thumb;

1. He found on a relatively calm day you needed to be at a bare minimum of 600'AGL in order to successfully make a turn back.

In addition, the person who asked this question asked about a turn back from crosswind not upwind. If we are starting the normal turn from the upwind to the crosswind, then we should be at 700AGL (300 below pattern altitude when starting the crosswind turn; FAA Flight Training Manual). If I were established on crosswind, with a single runway, surrounded by woods, with relatively calm winds, I would turn back.

Point is Teach judgment before the maneuver, evaluate your options.

Fly Safe.

 

[SATCFI]

Recently I started having students give me a departure briefing (in singles) similar to a multi. They need to verbalize at which altitude a turn back to the airport will be initiated. If they have a preconceived altitide in mind, the decision will be automatic, or so we hope.

 

[labbats]

I teach a crosswind turn at 700' AGL. Any engine loss before that I discuss with the student the impossible turn and the fact that they are landing in a place seen through the windshield. As soon as they start turning crosswind, if an engine loss occurs, it's natural to turn back.

 

[bobbysamd]

I have my students turn back to the airport/runway, and land into the wind if need be, but they always seem to come in so . . . high....... Should I have them do a right 360 (instead of a left turn towards the runway) and get the plane down that way?

You might also teach them to be alert for clear off-airport areas where they could land the airplane with minimal maneuvering.

I second de727ups on landing straight ahead after you pull it after takeoff, and/or maneuvering slightly left or right to find a clear area.