Engine failure on a 4 engine plane - What would you do?

[Fearless Tower]

I recently came across an interesting accident report and thought I’d post the scenario to see what everyone would do in such a situation. I’m not really sure that there is a right answer to this one, but I’m curious to hear what everyone thinks. So, borrowing from a concept mentioned in a different thread, here’s the next installment of Aeronautical Decision Making….You make the call:

You’re in a 4 engine aircraft taking off from an airport in a well populated area. Shortly after lifting off, while still over the runway, you lose an engine. Ok, no big deal, you still have 3 good ones, so you turn downwind and set up to return to the airport. Approach is normal and everything seems fine until you touch down on the runway. You have no brakes and no reverse thrust. What do you do?

Additional information: There is no fancy EMAS at the departure end of the runway. There are other airports in the vicinity including one only 6 miles away with a much longer runway.

 

[Spooky 2]

If your British Airways, you just contue to your destination. No harm, no foul.

 

[skiandsurf]

Lose 1 engine with 3 more working.....

Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.

Fly the plane.
Fly the departure as planned.
Declare the Emergency with ATC and get the company involved.

This is not a time critical emergency. Fly around. Probably have to burn or dump fuel. Find a good airport to divert to.....long runway, emergency equipment.

After all of the communications and checklist, go land.

...Now if the thing is on fire and you cant put it out.....LAND ASAP.

 

[avbug]

This is not a time critical emergency, you say...ever had it happen?

We lost #1 when it rolled back on takeoff out of Ocala once. We managed to dump our load and ran it up to someone's back door, as I recall. Despite best efforts to feather it and three others still running, we achieved nearly 200' of traffic pattern altitude, and disappeared behind the trees as we turned onto a downwind. Crash rescue was called on our behalf because no one knew where we went. We came back around and landed, but the #1 propeller refused to feather. Without feathering, even with the aircraft empty, our climb ability was so severely hampered, maintaining altitude was about all we could do.

I've experienced that several times.

What do you do if one quits? Act according to your needs at the time of occurence, and fly the airplane. You don't fly that big four engine airplane any differently than you do a light twin, with the exception that proceedures in many large airplanes call for wings level and ball centered, rather than out a half-ball.

I'm curious about the loss of braking and reverse thrust.

Lacking the ability to stop and knowing that a longer runway is available, assuming the longer runway has good crash rescue, that may be the better choice. Depending on how long it really is and what's surrounding the airport. Without brakes or reverse thrust, one might surmise that steering is also lacking. Regardless, stopping will be an issue, with a high probability of an over-run. knowing what's off the end that will ultimately stop the airplane is important. An airport capable of erecting any barriers or nets would be a plus.

That the longer runway is only six miles away doesn't matter much. If the aircraft finds no braking available, a go-around may be possible, or it may not (depends on what point the decision is made and when the problem is discovered). Depending on fuel status and availability of other aircraft, going to a more suitable airport farther away may be another option.

What to do depends entirely on what options are available and when you find out about them, balanced against existing aircraft performance and your ability to make full use of it.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Aviate, navigate and communicate certainly sounds right. Keep a level head and continue flying the plane would be my first thought. Only problem is that is exactly what the crew did.....and they're dead.

I'm curious about the loss of braking and reverse thrust.

That's the kicker. The above scenario comes from an accident between Burbank and Van Nuys back in '76. The aircraft was a DC-6 that took off from runway 15 at BUR. Apparently there was a crack in one of the propeller blades that had gone unnoticed since the crack was underneath the rubber de-icing boot. Shortly after liftoff the blade separated and the remaining unbalance prop literally tore the entire engine off the wing. That in itself wouldn't be so bad except for the pieces of propeller blade that unbeknownst to the flight crew had sliced through the hydraulic, electric and pneumatic lines in the belly and severed the drive gears for the oil scavange pump on the no 2 engine (at that point they had only about 4 minutes left on that engine). The crew flew a right traffic pattern and flew an uneventful approach to rwy 07. At that point they found that they had no brakes and no reverse thrust (due to loss of hydraulics). With the end of the runway coming up fast, they elected to climb out and proceed to Van Nuys which had a longer runway and at the time probably better crash and rescue.

Problem was that No 2 engine and no hydraulics. While proceeding to VNY, the No 2 not only ran out of oil, but wouldn't feather, not to mention that the gear remained down because of the loss of hydraulics. So, they ended up buying the farm on a golf course short of VNY.

NTSB report here: http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR76-17.pdf

Although there were probably some guage indications during the initial return to BUR that the problem was possibly greater than the loss of only one engine, it seems likely that the crew didn't see the signs while focusing on the immediate task of getting the plane back on the ground. Kind of sad really. Based on the knowledge that the crew had, the decision to go around seems like a sound one...who knows what the outcome would have been if they had stayed on the ground.

 

[avbug]

VNY isn't a good place if you're going to have an overrun. Neither is BUR (ask SWA ). Both VNY and BUR sit in a bit of a bowl...and often when the marine layer is in, other airports, assuming you could get out of the bowl, are socked in.

With hydraulic loss, how did that affect the #3 and #4 engines?

Feathering capability on an engine, and reversing capability, are unique to the engine. Losing hydraulics doesn't affect either one, and the hydromatic propeller uses it's own engine oil to feather...must be driven to the feather position.

It's hard to imagine why anyone would want to fly from VNY to BUR, seeing as they're only a few minutes apart by car.

With the loss of both engines on the left, they may have been out of luck. A Squared should chime in for this one. He flies a 6.

You do what you can with what you've got based on what you know at the time. It's possible to do everything right, and still lose. That's probably why it's called an emergency.

 

[USMCmech]

. Approach is normal and everything seems fine until you touch down on the runway. You have no brakes and no reverse thrust. What do you do?

A good rule of thumb is "if you're on the ground, stay on the ground".

By the time you realize that something is wrong and you are running out of runway, there isn't enough time to do anyhing but try to get stopped as best you can. At that point there are no good options, and you must choose between bad and REALLY BAD. I would rather hit the airport fence at 30kts while trying to get stoped, than clip the airport fence at 80 trying to do a touch and go.

Dliberately turning off into the grass might work, crashing in between two trees ripping off both wings will slow you down quickly, try to avoid hitting the fuel truck or other airplanes, keep flying the plane untill it stops, and pray.


Obviously there are exceptions to every rule of thumb, use your best judgement.

 

[ackattacker]

VNY isn't a good place if you're going to have an overrun. Neither is BUR (ask SWA ). Both VNY and BUR sit in a bit of a bowl...and often when the marine layer is in, other airports, assuming you could get out of the bowl, are socked in.

With hydraulic loss, how did that affect the #3 and #4 engines?

Feathering capability on an engine, and reversing capability, are unique to the engine. Losing hydraulics doesn't affect either one, and the hydromatic propeller uses it's own engine oil to feather...must be driven to the feather position.

It's hard to imagine why anyone would want to fly from VNY to BUR, seeing as they're only a few minutes apart by car.

With the loss of both engines on the left, they may have been out of luck. A Squared should chime in for this one. He flies a 6.

You do what you can with what you've got based on what you know at the time. It's possible to do everything right, and still lose. That's probably why it's called an emergency.

I found all this very curious also until I read the NTSB report. The #3 engine failed first, and one of the propeller blades passed clear through the fuselage and severed the hydraulic lines, emergency brake pneumatic lines, and the propeller control lines. So when the pilot landed he discovered he had no brakes, and no reverse. He made it a touch and go not knowing the #2 engine was about to fail. Hard to fault him for his decision.

 

[skiandsurf]

Aviate, navigate and communicate certainly sounds right. Keep a level head and continue flying the plane would be my first thought. Only problem is that is exactly what the crew did.....and they're dead.

That's the kicker. The above scenario comes from an accident between Burbank and Van Nuys back in '76. .

If they could have taken their time, not rushed to get back on the ground, they could have "limped" it over to LAX. They would have had plenty of runway, and plenty of CFR help.

Dont rush things.

Aviate.........keep the thing flying.
Navigate......keep it out of the hills.
Communicate......advise ATC of the emergency and pick the best alternate.

 

[ackattacker]

If they could have taken their time, not rushed to get back on the ground, they could have "limped" it over to LAX. They would have had plenty of runway, and plenty of CFR help.

Dont rush things.

Aviate.........keep the thing flying.
Navigate......keep it out of the hills.
Communicate......advise ATC of the emergency and pick the best alternate.

That's good advice, but I don't think it would have helped in this case. After the first engine came apart, they had only minutes until the #2 quit and didn't feather. I doubt the plane would limp very far on 2 engines and one solid disc.