End of an Era for FSS

[wasp junior]

Lockheed Martin Wins FSS Contract...
All of the existing FSS positions in the FAA will be eliminated and Lockheed Martin will hire its own staff. The FAA announced Tuesday the company won the government's largest-ever competitive outsourcing competition with a bid that will cut the number of FSS offices by two-thirds (from 58 to 20) by 2007, intends to save taxpayers $2.2 billion over 10 years, and at the same time pledges to offer virtually on-demand availability of flight information for pilots. Lockheed Martin beat four other applicants, including a partnership between the existing FSS organization (members of the National Association of Air Traffic Specialists, NAATS) and the Harris Corp.


I've always liked the fact that I could talk to a human being, even with all that is available on the web now, its truly sad these friends on 22.2 will be having to hit the pavement. I've heard the rumors that this would eventually happen, anyone have any idea how soon it will start and what options these folks will be given?

 

[garf12]

How do you think it will effect pilots?

 

[Metro752]

In a few years, like everything else, we'll know when we start speaking to Johnny India in Calcutta.

 

[typhoonpilot]

That is pretty sad news. When I was learning to fly it was always so nice to pop into the FSS office and get a good look at the weather charts and have a chat with the briefer. On long cross country flights I always liked to plan fuel stops where there was an FSS so I could get another good look at the weather. I fondly remember the FSS guys in Arcata/Eureka always making sure we had the minimums to get in .

That said, this was inevitable. With the automation of weather reporting and the technological advances the human element, which costs so much, was doomed. Still, there is always that human element that helps you catch something the automation misses. Perhaps a TFR or Notam that might go unnoticed or a better analysis of the weather. General aviation in particular is losing an important element as we " progress " in the modern world.

TP

 

[bobbysamd]

FSS demise

That is pretty sad news. When I was learning to fly it was always so nice to pop into the FSS office and get a good look at the weather charts and have a chat with the briefer. On long cross country flights I always liked to plan fuel stops where there was an FSS so I could get another good look at the weather. I fondly remember the FSS guys in Arcata/Eureka always making sure we had the minimums to get in

I learned to fly at an airport that had an FSS. It was great as a student to meet the personnel and learn how they operate. No matter where I was instructing, I would take my students to any nearby FSS, so they could meet the people and realize that help and services were always available. We always requested practice DF steers during cross-country training. The FSS was always happy to oblige, and it was great "live" training for students.

Yeah, try to get that from Calcutta.

 

[Flechas]

Man that sucks, I'm a big fan of flightwatch, one of the best weather tools out there, they kept me from getting in trouble a couple times.

 

[rcsimpson]

New FSS Operator . . .

Will you be needing to file today?
http://rcsunlimited.com/images/willyoubehearingmenow.jpg

 

[inline]

When you fly into an airfield with a tower that's operated by a contractor, you don't know the difference. It'll be the same for FSS. It's a positive change.

 

[bobbysamd]

FSS jobs eventually going offshore?

When you fly into an airfield with a tower that's operated by a contractor, you don't know the difference. It'll be the same for FSS. It's a positive change.

. . . . except that I don't like these kinds of jobs going offshore, where language differences and/or the language barrier can impede communications and affect safety.

I saw the language barrier first-hand when I worked with foreign airline students and when I was nearly mid-aired by a non-English speaker. I do not have foreign flying experience, but I can imagine how difficult communicating can be with ATC that speaks poor English.

 

[NuGuy]

When you fly into an airfield with a tower that's operated by a contractor, you don't know the difference. It'll be the same for FSS. It's a positive change.

It's probably lost on the relative noobs from the last couple of years...BUT back before the flight service stations were consolidated in to the automated FSSs (AFSS) in the late 80's early 90's, there was a world of difference. There were literally hundreds of FSSs, and these were all consolodated into 61 AFSSs, most of which didn't even have any windows on the buildings (for, you know, maybe to look outside at the weather?).

At each of these pre-AFSS local stations, the guys who worked there had been there literally for decades, and had an inate, deep understanding of the local weather, and it made their advice almost precient. If one of these guys told you "don't go", you didn't go, but instead kicked back, and they would share with you some coffee, donuts and stories...ALL of which were worth listening to.

True, there was no internet WX, flashy graphics or NEXRAD downloaded to your cell phone (heck, 1-800-WX-BRIEF was gee wiz), but what these guys had to say was like gold in your hand.

Thats not to say that the current briefers don't do a bang up job, but they could be reading you the weather from MIA or SEA, and it wouldn't make any difference.

Lockheed is making some big promises here, but I predict that after the first or second year, there will be either a "funding shortfall" or an "unexpected increase in costs" and it will usher in user fees. And once that camel's nose is under the tent flap, it will be harder than heck to prevent them in the rest of GA.

I figured AOPA would be more skeptical than they appear...so maybe I'm missing something.


Nu

 

[mayday1]

or an "unexpected increase in costs" and it will usher in user fees. And once that camel's nose is under the tent flap, it will be harder than heck to prevent them in the rest of GA.
Nu

and then there will be the corresponding rise in weather related accidents, busted TFRs, etc. as many will likely not use the service if there is a cost.

 

[Metro752]

When you fly into an airfield with a tower that's operated by a contractor, you don't know the difference. It'll be the same for FSS. It's a positive change.

Titusville Tower/Space Coast Regional is run by the city, and they were horrible, cept for the part where they helped arrange with military for a landing facility fly over.

Will you be needing to file today?
http://rcsunlimited.com/images/willyoubehearingmenow.jpg

Yep thats Johnny Bombay

 

[qmaster3]

. . . . except that I don't like these kinds of jobs going offshore, where language differences and/or the language barrier can impede communications and affect safety.

I saw the language barrier first-hand when I worked with foreign airline students and when I was nearly mid-aired by a non-English speaker.

Talk about a language barrier......I didn't understand $500 at the spanish cathouse.

 

[Wankel7]

That is something I never thought about....

Flightwatch was located in the FSS buildings?

Wankel

 

[RightBettor]

Here's an example of the experience I have talking to someone in Technical Support for Dell. The guy, in India, should've answered the phone with, "Thank you for choosing Dell. When you buy a Dell you've gone to Hell. My name is Raj, how can I be helping you today?"

Anyway, I was having trouble getting my wife's laptop to connect to a dial-up connection... she needs the ability to use dial-up when she is on the road. I traced the problem to the modem. So I tried to check for updates to the modem driver or even a new driver itself. No luck. Anyway, I call Dell tech support and the guy says, "You should reload your operating system." I ask, in amazement, "Reload my operating system??? Are you kidding?? That's about the last thing I'd want to do." He says, "Oh, yes, that's a veddy drastic move. It's one of the last things you should do indeed." I then ask, "Well if it's the last thing I'd want to do, then why is it the FIRST thing you came up with??" *click*


It's going to be interesting to see how well Raj does with the weather briefing.

 

[Vector4fun]

At each of these pre-AFSS local stations, the guys who worked there had been there literally for decades, and had an inate, deep understanding of the local weather, and it made their advice almost precient. If one of these guys told you "don't go", you didn't go, but instead kicked back, and they would share with you some coffee, donuts and stories...ALL of which were worth listening to.

True, there was no internet WX, flashy graphics or NEXRAD downloaded to your cell phone (heck, 1-800-WX-BRIEF was gee wiz), but what these guys had to say was like gold in your hand.

Nu

That was my experience exactly. And if they said don't go, they'd tell you where to get a courtesy car or ride, and where to go for the best lunch too.


I remember sitting around FSS one evening when the old teletype printed out the hourly obs. The Observation from DMN said something to the effect of:

"No further observations tonight due to rattlesnakes..."

That was too funny.

 

[FlyJordan]

I think Jepp has started some kind of service like this on their own, but they charge like 39.99 per flight. With this out sourcing of FSS I predict it wont be long before you have to give them your credit card number first instead of the tail number. This means that more pilots will elect to not receive a briefing and then get themselves into trouble by busting airspace, TFR's etc. they didn’t know where there. Also probably many more pilots will get into trouble with weather because they didn’t want to pay for a briefing. This is 100% a bad idea. After a few years of increased accident rates the gov't will be forced to pay Lockheed more money so we can get our free briefings and lower accident rates back.

just my prediction

 

[SSDD]

On the dual cross country flights I used to take students to either DAG, or EED, both of which had the white wooden shack FSS's with their klunky teletypes. Also as part of the night training, I would request practice DF steers from the LAS FSS...

FSS: Tomahawk 252 transmit for 30 seconds
T252: Tomahawk 252 one, two, three, four, five, five, four, three, two, one, tomahawk 252.
FSS: Tomahawk 252, I show you northwest of LAS, fly heading 135, report established....
.....
.....
FSS: Tomahawk 252 you're now over the DF antenna, do you see the airport?

What a confidence builder for primary students. Does anyone do those anymore?

Ahhhhh....those were the days....

 

[FlyJordan]

I never did one

 

[Goose Egg]

Actually, the airport that I fly out of has a contract tower, and they do a tremendous job.

As far as the FSS (or FS21) thing goes, it could greatly improve things, or it could shoot them all to complete suckiness. The only way to tell is to wait and see.

-Goose

 

[Wankel7]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[Wankel7]

http://zeeb.at/oops/ForecastingStone.jpg

I hear this will replace the FSS that was on the field..

 

[garf12]

http://zeeb.at/oops/ForecastingStone.jpg

I hear this will replace the FSS that was on the field..

HA, FYI to get it to work you have to copy paste.

 

[deskjobssuck]

RightBettor, you got it all wrong, man. I bet you will never hear one of the answer the phone as Raj. They are all Jimmy, Chris, Tiffany, David etc. Do they do this 'cause they think we're dumb enough to think they might be in Des Moines?

 

[Hovernut]

In a few years, like everything else, we'll know when we start speaking to Johnny India in Calcutta.

Or, we'll be talking to 'Sally Synthetic,' one of those computerized 'intellegent' operators like what's on the airlines' flight information 800 lines.

"I'm sorry, can you repeat that!"..."Let me see, did you say.....?"

 

[greygoose]

I was reading a article about it this morning. The contract will save the FAA money, Lockheed is dropping the number of stations down to something around 20 stations around the nation. The contract also says that the gurantee wait time on the phone is no longer then 20 seconds, and over the radio will have to be answered within 5 seconds. Pilot reports will have to be added to the database within 30 seconds and if it is a urgent report it has to be added within 15 seconds.
This all seems a little to unbelieveable but it is in the contract that the FAA required for Lockheed to take over. My biggest question is that if they will answer the phone within 20 seconds, does that mean they will talk to you or put you on hold? Thus ending up being the same amount of time that it takes the current briefers.

 

[greygoose]

That is something I never thought about....

Flightwatch was located in the FSS buildings?

Wankel

Yes FSS is Flighwatch, everything is in the same building

 

[cargoflyr69]

Wow, this sounds like a serious problem. I mean outsourcing of our jobs to foreign soil is bad enough. I agree that if indeed Johnny India does get the job it just may be a safety of flight issue.

I'm pretty sure the airline union groups won't be too much help in lobbying efforts in DC since most of their wx stuff is done inhouse, but now may be the perfct time to write your representatives and voice your displeasure with the cost saving measures. Also, heavy-hitting organizations such as AOPA and the EAA do have friends in DC. Write them a letter too! anything is worth a try, right?

 

[slowto250]

Some things are better left alone.

Cosolidating FSS's sucked.
Deregulating airlines sucked.
"Automating" Atis's sucked.
"Outsourcing" U.S. jobs sucked.

YADA YADA YADA

 

[HiFlyChick]

. . . . except that I don't like these kinds of jobs going offshore, where language differences and/or the language barrier can impede communications and affect safety.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but where does it say that the jobs will be leaving the country...?
(Or are y'all making assumptions based on other industry trends?)

In Canada we have the consolidated FSS under NavCanada and on the east coast at least, they do an excellent job. Provided that there's enough people working in that particular office, service is top notxch. In the Quebec region, they do seem to suffer from understaffing, and there is often delays, but that's more of a not enough people as opposed to it being a central location.