EMB 170/190 will make EMBRAER # 3

[071qhc]

Having ridden in the jumpseat of one of Mid-Atlantic Airways' Emb-170's and looking at the cabin etc, I can say that I think this family of aircraft will most likely vault Embraer from # 4 worldwide commercial aircraft manufacturer into # 3, past Bombardier, behind Airbus and Boeing. In fact, this is a family of aircraft family that Boeing SHOULD have built. Having been inside the DC-9/MD80 family and inside the 170, I can confirm Embraers assertion that this aircraft truly does have "mainline airliner" comfort. The cabin is 6'7'' high, which is only 2 " shorter than a DC-9/MD80 and feels very spacious. Also, the seats and aisles are wider than the CRJ 700/900 family and comparable to the Airbus 320 family and Boeing 737 family. There are two spacious lavs (you could almost rent the rear lav as a room, it's so big!), and a VERY big deal for passengers, unlike the CRJ 700/900, you can actually CARRRY ON your "carry on's", instead of gate checking them. I can attest that the overhead bins will very comfortably fit an overstuffed rollaboard (sideways). Also MUCH more cargo space than the CRJ 700/900 family. The cargo bins are on the right side of the aircraft, fore and aft of the wing, like mainline aircraft. There are 4 large doors (2 forward, 2 aft) for quick boarding/de-planeing, and galley servicing. Fly-by-wire technology assures common handling characteristics among the 170, 175, 190 and 195. Range and performance are also on par or above the CRJ 700/900 throughout the family. Embraer also mentions that if an airline customer requested it, they could take a section out and create a 55-65 seater when passengers finally revolt against Embraers own cramped 145 and Bombardiers CRJ 200. Talk about having the 50-120 seat class covered! As Mid-Atlantic, Republic Airways Holdings, and next year, jetBlue begin to deploy these aircraft, along with other sure to be announced future orders, I have no doubt that the company that so many have mocked as the builder of the "jungle-jet" will be laughing all the way to the bank as Bombardier, comes to regret it's decision to stretch it's Challenger business jet even further from the CRJ 200 to the 700/900 in a "rush to market" that will remind many of Dorniers ill-fated decision to "rush to market" with an"RJ" that was nothing more than a 328 turboprop, with a couple of turbofans slapped on (who ever heard of "boots" on a "jet", other than the first generation Cessna Citation). Also for those of you who will inevitably start knocking Republic Airways Holdings (Parent of Chautauqua Airlines and Republic Airlines) for ordering 50 of these new jets, all I have to say is wait and see, as the industry changes around you. You can call us all the names in the world you want, but just wait and see as $42.00 per barrel (or higher) oil prices, increased, fierce competition from Southwest, Airtran, jetBlue, Independence Air, Ted, Song, Frontier, Spirit, USA3000, Virgin USA, etc force all of you to wake up and realize that the ECONOMY and NOTHING ELSE, now drives this industry. Southwest has been saying it and proving it for thirty years. So to all of you who will continue to knock us, I say just keep talking smack about us, as the world and industry changes around you. As even almighty Delta starts to talk bankruptcy, and efficient Continental talks about fare-hikes and furloughs, and Northwest pilots vouluntarily submit a concessions package, guess who's next? Keep talking smack about how we at REP/CHQ are the scum of the earth. Keep talking it all the way to the furlough or unemployment line (God forbid). Just get off our friggin backs! This industry has been forever changed by the low-fare airline revolution and guess what, it is NEVER going back to the old way, no matter how much smack you talk!!! This 170 family is going to continue to change the industry, and I'm glad our management had the foresight to order a bunch of them. Now, please THINK, before you reply. C YA

 

[Weasel Keeper]

Well, hearing the rumor of Bombardier going Tango Uniform, this was a good read. Might try paragraphs next time to break it up though.

 

[norskman2]

Thanks for very thorough write-up. I'm sure people will disagree with much of what you say, but it's nice to hear a first-hand impression nonetheless!

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

What's wrong? Feeling a little quilty today? After seeing the 170 up close did it finally come to you? You must be thinking how stupid it was to agree to fly that great bird for so little pay.


You talk about SW. Did you know they have the second highest labor cost in the industry?

Keep drinking that koolaid, and if you pick up open time you may be able to afford some cookies with it.

 

[spinproof]

Thanks for very thorough write-up. I'm sure people will disagree with much of what you say, but it's nice to hear a first-hand impression nonetheless!

Indeed !!! A first hand impression or cranial immersion it's hard to distinguish. .....open wide and swallow it all now....

 

[NJA Capt]

...who ever heard of "boots" on a "jet", other than the first generation Cessna Citation.

Lockheed Jetstar
Jet Commander
Westwind
Astra
Galaxy/Gulfstream 200
Eclipse 500
DO328 Jet

 

[CODs4ever]

So to all of you who will continue to knock us, I say just keep talking smack about us, as the world and industry changes around you. As even almighty Delta starts to talk bankruptcy, and efficient Continental talks about fare-hikes and furloughs, and Northwest pilots vouluntarily submit a concessions package, guess who's next? Keep talking smack about how we at REP/CHQ are the scum of the earth. Keep talking it all the way to the furlough or unemployment line (God forbid). Just get off our friggin backs! This industry has been forever changed by the low-fare airline revolution and guess what, it is NEVER going back to the old way, no matter how much smack you talk!!! This 170 family is going to continue to change the industry, and I'm glad our management had the foresight to order a bunch of them. Now, please THINK, before you reply. C YA

Inferiority complex? Have fun flying the E-170 at pay rates that are going to be record-setting lows. Maybe if you're lucky, someday you could graduate and get on with JB flying the E-190 with at least a halfway decent wage, unlike CHQ.

 

[071qhc]

just keep talking...

 

[nimtz]

Also for those of you who will inevitably start knocking Republic Airways Holdings (Parent of Chautauqua Airlines and Republic Airlines) for ordering 50 of these new jets, all I have to say is wait and see, as the industry changes around you. You can call us all the names in the world you want, but just wait and see as $42.00 per barrel (or higher) oil prices, increased, fierce competition from Southwest, Airtran, jetBlue, Independence Air, Ted, Song, Frontier, Spirit, USA3000, Virgin USA, etc force all of you to wake up and realize that the ECONOMY and NOTHING ELSE, now drives this industry. Southwest has been saying it and proving it for thirty years. So to all of you who will continue to knock us, I say just keep talking smack about us, as the world and industry changes around you. As even almighty Delta starts to talk bankruptcy, and efficient Continental talks about fare-hikes and furloughs, and Northwest pilots vouluntarily submit a concessions package, guess who's next? Keep talking smack about how we at REP/CHQ are the scum of the earth. Keep talking it all the way to the furlough or unemployment line (God forbid). Just get off our friggin backs! This industry has been forever changed by the low-fare airline revolution and guess what, it is NEVER going back to the old way, no matter how much smack you talk!!! This 170 family is going to continue to change the industry, and I'm glad our management had the foresight to order a bunch of them. Now, please THINK, before you reply. C YA

Good review of aircraft but poor rant at the end.

You say the industry has changed YET the only reason Republic will be flying 170's is because they will operate for UAL, a mainline non-low cost carrier! I hardly see how you're management showed amazing foresight in being able to offer a narrowbody jet with exteremly long range at regional labor costs. By that logic, Johnny Orenstein is a genius.

We'll see just how much things have changed when you're management has the b@lls to fly those new age DC-9's without the backing of a major airline. Where are CHQ's marketing and reservations networks? You guys show up and UAL tells you exactely where to go and how often. Sometimes the more things change the more they stay the same. You need UAL just as bad as they need you. CHQ has no role in how the industry is changing other then that regionals can now fly 70 seaters for the nearly the same labor costs as 50 seaters.

Welcome to the new reality, b-scale without a mainline senority number to justify such pathetic pay/work rules. I agree that costs drive everything, but the simple fact is there is a greater demand for small jet pilots right now yet that has not transmitted into appropiate wage increases for any of us. The industry certainly has not changed to the point where a narrow body FO cannot support a family. If that's the case why then is a SWA FO pulling in alot more dough then one of your 170 Captains? However this generation of airline pilots appears ready to take this as god given gospel. Good luck to those 170 FO's house shopping around Dulles BTW...

 

[wms]

Boeing probably regrets not building a mini 73.
Oil won't stay at $40+ forever.
Pricing power will return, not only to aviation, but to electronics, autos, the fed, etc.
Frequent fliers and business travelers soon will want to avoid Sam's Club style airlines.
The BK rumors were started outside of DAL, and DAL mgmt says it's avoidable.
Anything from Embraer will always be a jungle-jet.
And certain pilot groups will be willing to fly them for below industry standard pay rates.

 

[071qhc]

just keep talking...

 

[Monster Buck]

I rarely reply, especially when I feel that someone is just baiting for reply, but due to your long post I think you are actually fooled. As a business owner I LOVED to find pilots like you. Smart enough to fly the plane and dumb enough to believe everything there are told. Airline execs. are thoroughly enjoying this train of pay concessions with excuses from gas to low fares that they set. All of this as they take, in one form or another, pay bonuses either now or with a small delay. They go home every night laughing and drinking till they fall over. Mostly they are falling over laughing at fools like you. Go back to college and get a business degree so you will know better and stop the abuse.

 

[relief tube]

wow 071qhc, you're finding new ways of spreading controversy and dislike within the industry. This message board has enough of that crap concerning valid arguements.

Nice try logging on and acting like you work there. You messed up when you completely over-did it, no one working there in their right mind would write that. And if by some remote chance you do, you got problems buddy. Sorry.

Get a hobby or something, you got too much time on your hands.

And some fellas actually thought it was legit. Wow.

Why do we all gotta be a buncha high school girls having all these little "tiffs" all the time. It goes nowhere and life's too short.

 

[DenverDude2002]

Back to the actual aircraft review.....

Sounds like a pretty nice plane from a passengers perspective. I have flown on 3 CRJ700s and really do not care for them at all. i swear legroom is less than the CRJ 200 and that floor drop makes getting a laptop case from the underseat stowage da*n near impossible. I prefer the CRJ-200 over it even with the low windows. Hopefully get to ride on a 170 sometime this year.

I'm curious, does the 170 have built in airstairs to handle airports without jetways?

 

[MECH]

Yes, a built in stair, is an option you can buy.

 

[DenverDude2002]

Hmm Cool. Anyone know if any of the 170s will be coming to KDEN or anywhere within 300 nm of KROA?

 

[GoFaster]

This is an interesting thread. I read a report by the Boyd Group about the E170/190 series aircraft that was very interesting. It mostly pertained to American Airlines, but did give some insight into regional operations. I hate to try to paraphrase what the Boyd Group said but with no other choice I will give it a shot.

-this is the new aircraft to fill the void between CRJ70 and MD80
-big question is who will fly them mainline v. regional pilots
-current RJ are going to fall out of favor due to high ASM cost
-major airlines are going to spin off wholly owned regionals, if they can
-now is the time to spin off the regionals, as they are probably worth as much as they will ever be worth.
-regionals will become more of a vendor style relationship vs. wholly owned.
-the spin off campaign has already begun, pinnacle, coex and he named some others
-fuel cost will be driving force for overall cost reduction for major airlines
-RJ fleet will diminish as quickly as turbo prop fleet, with exception of ATR72/42 in the caribeean (sp)
-plenty of vendors will be available for major airlines in future
-RJ cost are rising rapidly

In short it was a very informative presentation. I hope that mainline pilots will get the E170/190. That is just my personal opinion, worth what you paid for it. I do think if I were at a regional as a career pilot, I would be nervous about some of these items in the Boyd presentation. I do hope that all pilots try to make this a profession worth having.

For the record:

I am a furloughed TWA/AA pilot, flying 727 for a supplemental charter operation. I have no horse in this race.

From the "for what it is worth department",

GoFAST

 

[Pez D. Spencer]

071qhc,
I think you're worth every penny you get paid. I'm not sanctioning your BS, just saying that CHQ pilots are worth what they get paid.

It's not industry leading pay though. Is it an industry leading position?

I have a good number of friends there, and I want them to get paid well for what they do. Maybe next time around, you'll do yourself and us a favor by getting more for what you do. Your pay raise benefits both you and me.

BTW "just keep talking" is a chickensh1t way to debate.

 

[spinproof]

I am a furloughed TWA/AA pilot, flying 727 for a supplemental charter operation. I have no horse in this race.

Really!!!! No Horse!! Riiiiiggghhht! Go sell crazy somewhere else we're all stocked up here!...and take the Boyd group with you!

 

[q100]

Those of us who are pilots at regional airlines should be really uncomfortable with the trend of regional airlines flying ever larger aircraft at regional airline pay scales & work rules.

Yes the ER170 is comfy. Not especially reliable, but comfy. But, the sacrifices I'm making for my career will not be worth it if the best we can ever aspire to is flying ER170s at CHQ or Mesa working conditions.

Don't be so gleeful that you are growing so fast and taking over everyone's (mainline) flying, unless you never aspire to make more than your current contract will pay you, 'cos you won't.

The low fare revolution may be here to stay. Let us hope the low pay revolution is not hot on it's heels. Not worth being away from home 2/3 of the month for NYC bus driver pay. Think about it sonny.

MDA = Maintenance Delay Airlines.

ps. Forgive me if I'm wrong but don't the so-called "efficiencies" of regional jets stem from the fact that everybody who works on them earns hourly wages far lower than their mainline counterparts? And don't all CHQs revenues depend on codeshare agreements (pretend to be your big brother partner for advertising purposes, hey, the passengers won't know the difference) with the very major airlines you slam in your post, mr. 071qhc?