Eagle Pilots Want ALPA OUT!!

Cardinal

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Oh, you have got to be kidding me..... ALPA didn't give you anything - you VOTED for that 16 year contract! The whole purpose of a union is to assert more power through collective effort, ergo if if you aren't together you don't have much power. Your issue is with your coworkers, not your representation.
 

FEDUPPILOT

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Sure.......You know little my friend! Do you belong to a union? hmm.......You dont work here and dont know whats going on. Ask any Eagle pilot if he is happy with ALPA. Enough said!
 

Cardinal

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Well incidentally, you posted on a public board, thus you can expect to hear some public comment. Forgive us for not being employed by Eagle. Convince us, don't just moan.

If the AEPA is elected we hope that the current MEC leadership and committee members will be willing to be re-elected. Should any vacancies occur, interim elections will be held.
The current contract would remain in effect. The Agreement is between the Company and the air line pilots in the service of the Company as represented by…. It is not an Agreement between the Company and ALPA.
So no material leadership change, and of course no changes in the contract either. The only real, legitimate justfication is the following:

By changing to AEPA, it will allow the American Eagle pilots to negotiate directly with the APA in an effort to achieve a mutually acceptable single representational arrangement.
But frankly I'm not sure why an ALPA affiliated MEC cannot accomplish this goal. Assuming you were able to come up with an agreement in which all AMR pilots were to come under common representation, I presume the problem is who will represent the pilot group, the APA or ALPA. The APA was able to swallow the TWA pilots with a strong APA majority. Is the fear that in a single carrier the ex-Eagle guys and the ex-TWA guys together could finally outvote the APA loyalists? And of course it's those who you would need to win over to merge in the first place. Seems like the AEPA would be for the most part a show of humility to the APA. Correct me where I'm wrong.

But in all honesty I think you guys have the opportunity to set a new paradigm in the industry, to finally clear the SJ hurdle. We're counting on you. Just don't b*tc$ randomly about ALPA in the meantime.
 

Airline Pilot27

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FEDUPPILOT

If your are going to post on our behalf on a public message board can you please try not to make us sound like a bunch of uneducated, unproffesional dimwits.

Thanks
 

dashtrash

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The guys at my airline want to kick out the Teamsters and bring in ALPA. There seems to be no easy answer.
I'll tell you one thing, I am tired of the union leadership saying "The union is You."
That is not the way they acted when they wanted us to vote yes, or when they increased our dues.
 

Timebuilder

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Often, the union is you.

You paying dues, which escalate on a regular basis.

You voting for the only contract in which the union is willing to invest its time spent negotiating. Not necessarily a good contract.

You getting the short end of the stick compared to the "preferred" pilot groups.

You deciding that your union has not represented your interests as well as it has represented the interests of others.

You deciding to make a change.
 
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Dang dude, you guys voted FOR the 16-year contract.

You have to realize that kicking out ALPA and putting in 'Brand X' won't improve a single thing, because it's all about leadership.

Because the same guys that are in the LEC/MEC with ALPA will be the same LEC/MEC with 'Brand X'. Thus, the same malaise.

A union is only as good or as bad as YOUR LEVEL OF PARTICIPATION.
 

Tim47SIP

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DLsoutherjets

"You have to realize that kicking out ALPA and putting in 'Brand X' won't improve a single thing, because it's all about leadership. "

"Because the same guys that are in the LEC/MEC with ALPA will be the same LEC/MEC with 'Brand X'. Thus, the same malaise."

I can only guess by your profile that you are a mainline guy, and that might explain a little. That is not a cut, just a guess of where you are coming from.

I dunno, maybe I am totally wrong here, but here me out:

Kicking out ALPA and putting in brand X would improve greatly the Eagle guys ability to negotiate. You know as well as I do, that if ALPA doesnt like what it sees on a negotiated contract, it wont sign. Furthermore, ALPA will not let the little guys negotiate anything on their own, unlike their counterparts at the mainline. If the Eagle MEC did try to negotiate with AMR without ALPA's input, then ALPA would put the Eagle MEC into recievership as it has done in the past (with other MEC's). Alpa simply has it's own agenda and it needs to manipulate the regionals to adhear to it's plan (good or bad). That is why there is much more supervision and pressure to sign with the regionals that the mainline. If Eagle voted ALPA out, 100% of their dues would go to the Eagle union. Obviously there will be no strike for several years, allowing them to put some money in the bank. Additionally, they could go to the barganing table uninheeded by the ALPA lawyers, and setting their own agenda. Also, your statement about the same MEC's would be in place, so things would stay the same. This is simply not true, as they wouldn't have ALPA constantly breathing down their backs monitoring their every move. Remember, that while a member of ALPA, the MEC is sworn to uphold the ALPA doctrine. He has no choice but to play by the ALPA rules.
Additionally, there will probably be someone that thinks that ALPA could care less about what eagle does concerning ALPA's own agenda and what the APA want. Anything that the new Eagle union and the APA agree on that is not in the best interests of ALPA, could start a precedence in a way that could greatly affect ALPA's ability to move in a certain direction. That is why ALPA will be there (or not) every step of the way. And don't forget that ALPA is also courting the APA.


If you don't like what is happening in the industry, wait a minute and things will change!:eek:
 

Freight Dog

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......and then Eagle goes on strike with no financial backing for their membership in form of strike pay or paying the lawyers and negotiators.

It's funny how people don't realize that THEY ARE the union. You don't like what you see... call your LEC/MEC and tell them. They are REQUIRED to listen. If the majority doesn't like the leadership, then you start the recall process and get the leadership out and vote for new leadership.

The in-house union working with APA.. now there's a good one. You think by kissing APA's butt, they get you your 14 ERJ's back from TSA and relax their scope? Keep the jokes coming.

This one really cracks me up... "ALPA gave us 16 year contract." No bro, you gave it to yourself by voting for it. ALPA signed it because YOU said YES. Now you're pissed. I don't know, but it seems like to me that you reap what you sow..

Nope, I don't work for Eagle, so nope, I don't know what the COMPLETE story is over there, but I can tell ya that dumping ALPA and going with a BRAND NEW in-house union is about as dumb as cutting off your head for having a headache.
 

Tim47SIP

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Fdog

Who exactly are you talking to???

"and then Eagle goes on strike with no financial backing for their membership in form of strike pay or paying the lawyers and negotiators. "

Cant be me since I stated that a strike wont happen for a while!

"It's funny how people don't realize that THEY ARE the union. You don't like what you see... call your LEC/MEC and tell them. They are REQUIRED to listen. If the majority doesn't like the leadership, then you start the recall process and get the leadership out and vote for new leadership. "

Cant be me either since I stated that any MEC will have to serve under ALPA's laws and supervision. YOU CANT DO WHAT THE HECK YOU WANT UNLESS THE UNION SAYS YOU CAN!!


"The in-house union working with APA.. now there's a good one. You think by kissing APA's butt, they get you your 14 ERJ's back from TSA and relax their scope? Keep the jokes coming. "

Cant be me either, since I dont even know anyone who works for TSA. I can see the reality though, Eagle gets to negotiate DIRECTLY with AMR, didn't say anything (concerning this) about APA!

'Nope, I don't work for Eagle, so nope, I don't know what the COMPLETE story is over there, but I can tell ya that dumping ALPA and going with a BRAND NEW in-house union is about as dumb as cutting off your head for having a headache.'

Nope, I dont work for them either, but sometimes actions speak louder than words. Yes, they signed that agreement, but they were lead to believe that it was a good one. Sounded good at the time, but later proved very decisive and devious. Should the Eagle MEC have warned the Eagle pilots? Absolutely! But he definitely had help from a higher presence.

Question? If they are to stay in ALPA, how long do they wait for action? 10 years? What? Oh ya, I forgot, their MEC's can do anything they want, because it is a people union!:rolleyes:
 

Freight Dog

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Read the website... I was responding partially to your post and to the original poster who posted the link.
 

SDF2BUF2MCO

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Freight Dog, et.al

While it's true the Eagle folks can contact their MEC. The reality of the situation is that it is tough to change things. Just as it is in our government. Yes, the system is in place but it is difficult-almost impossible-to go up against the "big machine". That doesn't mean people don't give up, just have their work cut out for them.
It is a shame. Flying can be one of the best jobs a person can have and all the poop a person has to put up with makes it a job and a pain in the hiney.
 

eaglefly

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Actually, although the 16-year agreement while technically voted in by the membership, it was done so under a system orchestrated by a then misguided and ethically bankrupt MEC and ALPA national to insure its passing. ALPA national WANTED that 16-year contract voted in. It was in "their" financial best interest. Watching ALPA national's conduct regarding the Delta/Connection situation and the UsAirways JFJ fraud reinforces what I observed during the Eagle contract roadshows and BOTH votes in '97 - ALPA nationals best interests are not always YOUR best interests, especially if your a "regional" airline.
 
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Eaglefly-

Delta pilots got a crappy contract back in 1996.

Why? Because idiot pilots voted FOR it.

Who's fault? Our fault. We could blame ALPA national, but it wouldn't change things one iota.

YOU are the union.
 

FlyinBrian

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It's true that the Eagle Pilots voted for the 16 year contract. They made that concession in exchange for scope languange to ensure that there would only be one Eagle providing all feed to AA. At least that's what the union told them. They also accepted a pay index system that they were lead to beleive would keep them at about 6% above the industry average.

The problem is that while we have to honor the no-strike clause, the company has not honored their end of the contract. Eagle does not enjoy above average pay, and their jobs are being outsouced to TSA and CHQ. Where is ALPA national? They were there convincing pilots to sign, but now that all the promises in the contract have been broken, they aren't lifing a finger. Eagle's MEC is trying to take on AMR. It's a David and Goliath situation without help from ALPA national. and Eagle's not getting a thing.

It wasn't until Eagle's MEC passed a resolution authorizing an assesment on the member ship to pay for legal representation if National refused to provide it that national finally threw some legal cash their way. It's pretty messed up that a union should assess its membership for somthing dues are supposed to cover.

So you have to understand Eagle's frustration with ALPA. Sure they voted for the 16 year contract. But that's because they were promised a lot in return. Those promises have all been broken, pilots are getting screwed, and the folks at National couldn't care less. Is dumping ALPA the right thing to do? I don't know. But the pilots are getting pretty desperate and they want things to change.
 

surplus1

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DLSouthernjets said:
Eaglefly-

Delta pilots got a crappy contract back in 1996.

Why? Because idiot pilots voted FOR it.

Who's fault? Our fault. We could blame ALPA national, but it wouldn't change things one iota.

Your statements are accurate but miss the point completely.

The Delta MEC and pilot group is "the" most powerful group within the ALPA. While UAL might be in a position to challenge that, no other airline in the ALPA even comes close.

If the Delta pilots want something from the ALPA that the rest of ALPA would prefer not to give, the DMEC then threatens to take its marbles (money) and play in its own sandbox. Result = it gets what it wants, when it wants. I'm not saying that's bad or good. Just that it's true.

There is NO comparison whatever between what the EGL MEC can do in the ALPA and what the DAL MEC can do.

When the DAL pilots negotiate or ratifiy a contract you are correct in saying it is "their responsibility". When the EGL pilots do the same it is as different as night and day.

If you don't know what happens behind the scenes I can excuse your statement. If you DO know, then your statement is diliberately misleading. I suspect you don't know.

There is a history to the EGL's 1997 contract. Those who know some of that history are obliged to take exception to what you've said. I can't recall the exact quote but , "you shouldn't judge another man until you've walked a mile in his moccasins".

I'm not an EGL pilot, I'm a Comair pilot, but I do have a dog in their struggle for I too am a "regional" pilot. Like it or not, we regional pilots are all in the same stew. Whatever affects one of us, affects us all. It is time that we recognize this, set aside our differences and join hands in defense of our union rights.

Personally, I don't believe that leaving the ALPA is the way to do this right now. I think we should first make a serious effort, within the union, to correct the problems we face.

While we do have some divergent interests, they are very small by comparison with out common interests. IMO, we need a solid coalition between ourselves that allows us to pursue our interests within the Association. That coalition should include the Canadian regionals.

The ALPA has been far more effective in dividing regional pilots and playing them against each other internally, than the management groups do externally. The union's internal structure is frequently "adjusted" in such a way that we are precluded from effective political power within the organization. Our individual voices are at best whispers, mostly unheard.

As a consequence, we must always do as we're told (and believe me we ARE told) and never as we prefer. While I do not believe that we should always "get our way", I can't subscribe to "never" getting our way either.

To date, regional pilot leaders have not been willing or wise enough (I'm not sure which), to understand the benefits of coalition. Perhaps one day soon, they will. I can always hope.

Of course I realize that mainline groups can also form a coalition of their own to counter that and restore the status quo. That is likely for the mainline groups often do that today. They have to find common ground if anything is to get done. Nevertheless, a true coalition of the regionals or preferably the "non-majors" would level the palying field considerably. Today's disparity is increasingly unworkable.

Would what I suggest be good for the union as a whole and not jut the "regional" members? I think the answer is yes. Why? = "A house divided against itself cannot stand."

Regards
 

FlyinBrian

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Maybe we need "RALPA" with its own national organization. I think it is gettin to the point where major airline and regional airlines interests are too divergent to be represented by the same union.
 

Anaconda

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don't forget to add coporate airlines to the list of carriers that now fly under "american connection". they always seem to be left off of the list for some reason...
 
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