Eagle class date... Skyway interview... decisions, decisions...

[FHTEAGLE]

I have a firm class date of Aug 30th at Eagle, but got a call today from Skyway offering an interview... I'm looking for general advice on both companies, especially from current employees. Please, no flamebait/bashing, just the facts and firsthand experiences please.

My major goals right now are time off, QOL, and travel bene's. I have a second source of income that more or less makes the crappy first year pay a non-issue... long term, want to head to FedEx or UPS, but I'm not in the hell-bent rush to get there that some people are. Sure, PIC time opens doors (and pays the bills better ;^), but I know that I'll need to get my total time up as well to be attractive, especially in the current hiring market.

Here's my thinking and big nagging questions about each company...

_Eagle_
PROS: relative stability; modest but continuous growth through at least end of 2005; variety of bases; slightly better pay; ORD base is a big plus for me; all a/c have an FA...
CONS: "being a number" at a big carrier with low morale; by my estimates at least 3-4 years to upgrade (at current growth and attrition rates); the current union vs. company vs. mainline union and company garbage; I'm 23, will get last-ish pick on a/c and base in my class, which means I'm likely to get SJU, yesno?
QUESTIONS: Eagle employees considered the same as AA employees when JS/non-reving on mainline? Scheduling/contractual issues as bad as I have heard? Likely improvements in the next contract "adjustment"? I met someone formerly from Eagle who claimed he was wrongfully terminated for refusing to fly in severe icing - is it easy to get in hot water/fired, or do most pilots find it easy to "keep their nose clean"?

_Skyway_
PROS: smaller, more "friendly" company from what I understand; if the Delta deal goes through, the quick upgrade (and faster paycheck progression); MKE and CVG are okay bases for me; getting to fly the DorkJet (sounds like a blast from people I know)
CONS: riskier move; Delta deal falling through or a bankruptcy; lower pay (if no upgrade); all the problems associated with an exploding carrier (manning, facilities, etc.); flying the BE1900; Mx problems on the DorkJet
QUESTIONS: when is there going to be a confirmation on the Delta deal? how many pilots currently on staff, in training, etc? I'm not "too late in the hiring wave" to get an upgrade in less than 12-24 months, yesno? likely class dates in the next 1-3 months?


Again, I welcome any and all intelligent feedback, "have you thought about this", etc... Of course I'm the only one who can make the right choice for me, but I want all the info necessary to pull that off.

Thanks in advance for the info and advice...

 

[tittyjet]

Rule number 1 of the airline business: ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS go with the first firm class date.

 

[General Lee]

Eagle.


Bye bye--General Lee

 

[generaltso]

you remind me of one of the bosses i had. I think he had ADD. He would waste hours and hours analyzing a decision instead of having the balls to make one.

I have found that a career in aviation is mainly luck. You probably have already made your decision, just looking for confirmation on these forums to make you "feel good".

 

[English]

Take the Eagle class date, but also attend the Skyway interview. You'll know which way to go after the Skyway interview and after you start class at Eagle.

 

[John_W_Thompson]

You've struck a nerve. Eagle wont help you get to FedEx or UPS (which BTW are excellent choices if you want a retirement package and job security). You won't upgrade there. It's a job, maybe take it for now for bill paying purposes. But it is ultimately a waste of your time. You should build seniority somewhere that it will help you. You will be seduced by the world class training / facilities, Dallas' ops, the Embraer's. It's all like a Playboy magazine. There's nothing really there. Talk to some other pilots besides me. Go somewhere where you can garner turbine/turboprop pic. You'll NEED that, & as a fringe benefit the pay will be better when you make PIC. I quit Eagle after 2 years in search of PIC (post 9/11). To the fatalists "take the first job" mentality ... I was hired at Eagle and Comair the same day, but Comair didn't have a class for at least 4 months, and Eagle was ready now - and there was a chance for a convenient base. I took Eagle, but I'd be an RJ Capt now at Comair. You can't predict the future, you can only manage your odds and expose your self to the 'right' risks/opportunities. Sort of like trading stocks. You will not be exposing yourself to any PIC opportunity by going to Eagle. That should be a red flag to you.

If you want to win, you've got to play.

P.S. I have overlooked one detail - SJU does offer SOME upgrade opportunity. TALK to a SJU pilot. I suggest http://www.eaglelounge.com/ But I believe it'll take more years than necessary. But some poeple like SJU awhile, esp young and single such as yourself. Make a list from most important to least important.

May I suggest:

1 <<<<PIC opportunity>>>>
2 Equipment
3 Location (quality of life AND type of flying experience)
4 Pay
5 Flight Attendant (it's a 50/50 thing here - they can be a pain too - just like any other human <not picking on flight attendants that is>)
6 SJU Babes

One thing you have that's worth mentioning - TIME - you're young. If you were my nephew I'd say lean towards Skyway. Roll the dice (some of your life) over there.

You probably only need 12 years at FedEx for example to reap ~95% of the highest possible retirement. www.airlinepilotpay.com

Consider 'unpopular' airlines (without sacrificing safety that is). Go for turbine PIC.

Don't overlook cargo. FedEx doesn't require 121 time - only turbine SE or turboprop ME (Think EMB 110, Beech 99, Metroliner, Twin Otter, or any job you can get turbine/turboprop PIC at a good rate/month) There's a respect over there too for freight dogs.

 

[English]

FHTEAGLE doesn't have a job offer at Skyway, only an interview.

Take the definite - the job offer. IF and WHEN you get a class date at Skyway, then go to Skyway. But, in my opinion, it wouldn't be smart to decline a class date at Eagle when all you have at Skyway is an interview. I've seen guys do this time and time again. Why give up a deifinite for a maybe? Take the definite (eagle class date) then turn the maybe (Skyway interview) into a definite class date.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Ae

Rule number 1 of the airline business: ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS go with the first firm class date.

That's a big ditto!

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

I disagree with your first paragraph

You've struck a nerve. Eagle wont help you get to FedEx or UPS (which BTW are excellent choices if you want a retirement package and job security). You won't upgrade there. It's a job, maybe take it for now for bill paying purposes. But it is ultimately a waste of your time. You should build seniority somewhere that it will help you. You will be seduced by the world class training / facilities, Dallas' ops, the Embraer's. It's all like a Playboy magazine. There's nothing really there. Talk to some other pilots besides me. Go somewhere where you can garner turbine/turboprop pic. You'll NEED that, & as a fringe benefit the pay will be better when you make PIC. I quit Eagle after 2 years in search of PIC (post 9/11). To the fatalists "take the first job" mentality ... I was hired at Eagle and Comair the same day, but Comair didn't have a class for at least 4 months, and Eagle was ready now - and there was a chance for a convenient base. I took Eagle, but I'd be an RJ Capt now at Comair. You can't predict the future, you can only manage your odds and expose your self to the 'right' risks/opportunities. Sort of like trading stocks. You will not be exposing yourself to any PIC opportunity by going to Eagle. That should be a red flag to you.

If you want to win, you've got to play.

P.S. I have overlooked one detail - SJU does offer SOME upgrade opportunity. TALK to a SJU pilot. I suggest http://www.eaglelounge.com/ But I believe it'll take more years than necessary. But some poeple like SJU awhile, esp young and single such as yourself. Make a list from most important to least important.

May I suggest:

1 <<<<PIC opportunity>>>>
2 Equipment
3 Location (quality of life AND type of flying experience)
4 Pay
5 Flight Attendant (it's a 50/50 thing here - they can be a pain too - just like any other human <not picking on flight attendants that is>)
6 SJU Babes

One thing you have that's worth mentioning - TIME - you're young. If you were my nephew I'd say lean towards Skyway. Roll the dice (some of your life) over there.

You probably only need 12 years at FedEx for example to reap ~95% of the highest possible retirement. www.airlinepilotpay.com

Consider 'unpopular' airlines (without sacrificing safety that is). Go for turbine PIC.

Don't overlook cargo. FedEx doesn't require 121 time - only turbine SE or turboprop ME (Think EMB 110, Beech 99, Metroliner, Twin Otter, or any job you can get turbine/turboprop PIC at a good rate/month) There's a respect over there too for freight dogs.

The candidate is only 23 and is at the point where a commutter gig for turbine/Jet time is appropriate. Where else should he/she go at this point to gain "meaningful seniority" at this point in his/her career progression?

 

[TIS]

I have to agree with those who've said accept the class date but attend the other interview (if you can).

The fact is that you have NO decision to make at the moment - other than whether to make the effort to get to the interview. If, after the interview, you are afforded a choice things will be different.

Here's why you should go to the interview. You need the practice. Look at it this way: if you play your cards right, this is the second to last step you'll take towards your career goal - the endgame is upon you - potentially. It is possible that the next round of interviews you will attend will be for the last job you'll ever fight to get. Do you really want to go into that having only interviewed at a couple of regionals?

Get as much interview experience as you can. There are many facets to any one interview and many ways one can go. It REALLY helps to believe this in your heart before you get to a really big one - you know the one that gets you the one job you really want. To a certain extent, interviewing for a job you really want is a bit like buying a car you really want - you have to go into it appearing to be as relaxed about it as possible. Understanding how interviews work and how you deal with them on a personal level will come from actually going to a few of them.

Hope this helps!

TIS

 

[John_W_Thompson]

A few more thoughts.

- I agree ... Interview experience is invaluable.
- I agree on taking the Eagle slot and leave if Skyway or other pulls through for you.
- I disagree - 23 is an appropiate age...for what? I have heard of a couple of stories of 19 years old getting hired at the majors. This person will need turbine PIC and Eagle wont provide it until he's 30 at least. And he can do better than that too. Where else can you gain maeningful seniority? - Colgan, Island Air (Hawaii), Gulfstream Int'l off the top of my head. These are all places that have movement & you can upgrade.
- Try to think about where you'll be in 3-4 years. I am at 4.5 years. There's a lot of people around, with a couple years less in this game, that are PIC's. Eagle was a mistake for me.

 

[amcnd]

I am also a 5 year Eagle guy. But I think it's to early to tell if Eagle was a mistake for me. Things can turn on a dime. I have watched it myself. Eagle and other airlines looked allot different 7-10 years ago. Eagle is a safe bet for the future. Upgradees can and will change for all airlines. I turned down Mesa 5 years ago because I did not want to fly another 19 seat aircraft. I would have been RJ captian in less then 2 years. But now if US airways goes under allot of Mesa pilots could be hurt. There is no wrong choice. The ending of the story, wont be told tell you are 60. And can look back at your career and see if it was good.

 

[LAXSaabdude]

Rule #1- Don't EVER go to an airline based on what you THINK the upgrade time will be, because, invariably, it will be wrong.

Here's my experience. Hired at Wings West (Eagle) in 1995. At the time, upgrades were 2 years in the Jetstream. 2 days after I finished IOE, the e-mail came out saying that we would be getting rid of the Jetstreams, and replacing them with Saabs, while keeping seating capacity level. When you do the math, replacing 19 seaters with 34 seaters means a whole lot fewer pilots. All of 1996, rumors of furloughs ran rampant, and upgrades ground to a standstill.

In the fall 1997, the 4 Eagles merged, and the first jet order was placed. Since Wings West was a relatively junior list to Flagship and Simmons, all of my fellow Wings Westers insisted that there would be no upgrades for "at least a decade". Many FOs near my seniority took the first jet FO bid, figuring that they would be FOs for another 6-8 years, so they may as well be making a little more money and getting jet time.

I had a hard time believing that. I looked at the trends, and realized that those FOs had just seat-locked themselves out of a possible upgrade. I held out in the Saab. Some people thought I was nuts to hold out for an upgrade.

So, long story short, after 3.5 years (2.5 on reserve as an FO, just to show you how stagnant it really was for some of that time), I held my first captain bid, while all of the jet FOs near my seniority were left out of a few more months of PIC time.

Moral of the story, don't listen to people who tell you to go to the place with the quickest upgrade. Unless someone is going to hire you off the street as a captain, upgrade time is a moving target, and unless you have a really good crystal ball, upgrade time will never be the same in a few years as it is when you are deciding which job to take.

LAXSaabdude.

 

[NRHPilot]

True words about the upgrade from LAXSaabdude. Last summer some 4+ and even 6 year Eagle FO's left to another regional in the hopes of a sooner upgrade. I am guessing they are still FO's and probably towards the bottom of the list at that. The upgrade time can change very quickly with a company. These guys went to Comair (great company by the way) for a quicker upgrade, but now things have changed a little bit. You just have to make the call and stick to it. Interview though, it never hurts for the practice.

 

[RJP]

Rule number 1 of the airline business: ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS go with the first firm class date.

Yep. Can't turn down a job offer for an interview.

That would be like turning down a free hooker for a chick you saw across the bar with her boyfriend.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

The other Eagle-boys below don't see it your way

A few more thoughts.

- I agree ... Interview experience is invaluable.
- I agree on taking the Eagle slot and leave if Skyway or other pulls through for you.
- I disagree - 23 is an appropiate age...for what? I have heard of a couple of stories of 19 years old getting hired at the majors. This person will need turbine PIC and Eagle wont provide it until he's 30 at least. And he can do better than that too. Where else can you gain maeningful seniority? - Colgan, Island Air (Hawaii), Gulfstream Int'l off the top of my head. These are all places that have movement & you can upgrade.
- Try to think about where you'll be in 3-4 years. I am at 4.5 years. There's a lot of people around, with a couple years less in this game, that are PIC's. Eagle was a mistake for me.

Not to pick on you, but others currently at Ealge don't share the same view, but nobody can really read the tea leaves!

I transferred to AE in 1994 (Executive - SJU) after working 5.5 years for AMR as an international F/A. My roomate who was less than 3 months senior to me upgraded in 6 months to the SD3-60. I was 3 out of 53 F/Os. Executive threatened 60-80 of us with furlough unless we went to Simmons at the bottom of the seniority pile. I went to Piedmont and got a raise, figuring I would be F/O for 6-8 years at AE. Things changed and I would have been Captain on the ATR in 4.5 years.

Current Eagle: Stagnation for now, but:

AE is the fastest growing regional in the world.

Only about 20% - 25% of the flowback people are flowing back and many were excluded from the process (including me, a 1996 TWA-hire). The interest in flowback isan't there for the majority. This is good for the new-hire Eaglette!

AE training is excellent and well respected in the avation community. I believe the highest amount of commutter types at TWA came from AE, there was a higher percentage from TSA. I think if an AE guy were competing for a major job in the future, he/she would have an advantage over a MESA or the like commuter-type, based on training alone. (Not picking on MESA!).

All AE furloughees have been recalled and they are hiring and lowering the minimuns. These are not indicators of "current" stagnation.

In closing, "Goodluck at AE"

Jeff

 

[FO 4 Life]

Another thought. What happens if you don't make it to UPS or FEDEX? You said yourself you're only 23. What will Skyway be 30 years from now? You can always leave a few years later if you don't make it to a major, but will you want to start over?

 

[NRHPilot]

Another thought. What happens if you don't make it to UPS or FEDEX? You said yourself you're only 23. What will Skyway be 30 years from now? You can always leave a few years later if you don't make it to a major, but will you want to start over?

3 out of every 1000 minor league baseball players make it the "the show", So if we can for just a minute treat a regional as a minor league team, how many regional pilots will make it to Fed Ex, UPS, etc...?

 

[English]

Another thought. What happens if you don't make it to UPS or FEDEX? You said yourself you're only 23. What will Skyway be 30 years from now? You can always leave a few years later if you don't make it to a major, but will you want to start over?

Another line of thinking is that if he doesn't make it to UPS or FedEx, he won't necessarily have to stay at Skyway. He can take an intermediary step, such as flying for a national or LCC. I don't think that would be considered "starting over".

 

[FHTEAGLE]

Thank you all very much!

I just want to say thank you all for your perspectives and opinions. Most of the comments you all have made were thoughts I've had at one point or another. Not surprised the discussion has orbited around upgrade time so much, as it seems to be on the front of everyone's mind in this "slow" time in the industry...

I had done a lot of thinking even before coming back to the forum to read your comments, and I was leaning highly toward going to, and staying at Eagle, regardless of an offer from Skyway. My reasons were varied, but mostly revolved around going for what I am going to enjoy over the next couple of years, not what a future employer is going to value higher. And, if turbine PIC ever turns out to be a stumbling block, I know there are other avenues that will be open to me after a year or two at Eagle, so I'm really not worried about that.

I'd like to hear more about the quality of life at both companies? Schedules, days off, commutable lines, whether scheduling tries and/or succeeds to "abuse" people? How are the chief pilots to deal with? Things like that.

Thanks again to all, made a very important decision for me a much more informed one, and that is invaluable!