E.D. above 410

[GravityHater]

A DPE told me that if a window or seal goes that high, you are dead. Masks or not, it's over. First I'd heard that so I thought I would run it past you all.
Thought of it when reading the drvsm thread.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

nah, just hold you breath until you can get down.

No big deal.

 

[rumpletumbler]

A DPE told me that if a window or seal goes that high, you are dead. Masks or not, it's over. First I'd heard that so I thought I would run it past you all.
Thought of it when reading the drvsm thread.

Thats bull**CENSORED**

 

[mattpilot]

not that high.. no...

but go to FL600 then your in big shiat. YOu need a pressurized suit up that high. The pressure differential at that altitude between your body & outside air is so high that your blood starts moving so fast that it will actually boil.

There has been a case in the russian space program with one of their early capsules. After it reentered earths atmosphere, the capsule was designed to vent outside air. Well, the cosmonauts were on oxygen masks, but didn't have pressurized suits. They didn't survive the trip because they all were cooked from the inside out.


**edit** oh and as for Space ship one pilots not wearing pressurized suits - well i guess if something goes "pop" up in that little bitty ship, nothing can save ya then anyway

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Most masks are good to 410 no problem. Not comfy for sure, but good until you get down. It is said that at 510 you are going to have an uncontrolled core dump and leave a steamy in your shorts and possibly take out an ear drum. Above that is in the realm of pressure suits.

Of course in the 40 to 50 range, your pax will be the main concern, pilots have pressure masks, your pax do not. Get it down double quick would be the order of the day. In an ED, useful time is very short and probably most of the pax will be out cold before they could get O2 on.

 

[KPTPK]

At 410 you should get about 13-18 seconds of useful consciousness. Is that enough time to get your quick-don on? We know that Payne Stewarts crew didn't.

 

[AceCrackshot]

Paynes folks had a slow leak out, not an E.D., AFAIK...probably more prepared for the E.D.

 

[nosehair]

I dunno, I usually experience E.D. on the ground, but start getting an erection as soon as I break through the haze layer.

 

[2000flyer]

Thus 91.211 b(ii)...

(ii) At flight altitudes above flight level 350 unless one pilot at the controls of the airplane is wearing and using an oxygen mask that is secured and sealed and that either supplies oxygen at all times or automatically supplies oxygen whenever the cabin pressure altitude of the airplane exceeds 14,000 feet (MSL), except that the one pilot need not wear and use an oxygen mask while at or below flight level 410 if there are two pilots at the controls and each pilot has a quick-donning type of oxygen mask that can be placed on the face with one hand from the ready position within 5 seconds, supplying oxygen and properly secured and sealed.
(2) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(1)(ii) of this section, if for any reason at any time it is necessary for one pilot to leave the controls of the aircraft when operating at flight altitudes above flight level 350, the remaining pilot at the controls shall put on and use an oxygen mask until the
other pilot has returned to that crewmember's station.

 

[Daveman]

(ii) At flight altitudes above flight level 350 unless one pilot at the controls of the airplane is wearing and using an oxygen mask that is secured and sealed and that either supplies oxygen at all times or automatically supplies oxygen whenever the cabin pressure altitude of the airplane exceeds 14,000 feet (MSL), except that the one pilot need not wear and use an oxygen mask while at or below flight level 410 if there are two pilots at the controls and each pilot has a quick-donning type of oxygen mask that can be placed on the face with one hand from the ready position within 5 seconds, supplying oxygen and properly secured and sealed.
(2) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(1)(ii) of this section, if for any reason at any time it is necessary for one pilot to leave the controls of the aircraft when operating at flight altitudes above flight level 350, the remaining pilot at the controls shall put on and use an oxygen mask until the
other pilot has returned to that crewmember's station.

Ok, isn't this the most violated reg out there? I've heard some pilots placing their mask in their laps above 410.

 

[rumpletumbler]

Thats the regs but I doubt many people do it.

 

[GravityHater]

Cripes how can anyone even begin to interprets such a convoluted paragraph with all the provisios, exceptions and "notwithstanding's"?!?!?

Do you guys all pack a handheld attorney when you fly?

I am going to hire one to deciper that reg.

 

[rumpletumbler]

I am going to hire one to deciper that reg.

You should know the regs BOYYYYYYY!

 

[GravityHater]

I guess one thing that would help me to not believe I am a dead man in such a situation would be if I could read about some cases in which people had survived.

How come you never hear such reports?
"There we were fat and happy at 330 over Indiana when BANG/WHOOSH the cabin filled with cloud and my ears hurt like 4ell, my guts swelled to an agonizing size as I blew ^%#% into my shorts. I realized amid all the annunciator warnings that we had decompressed so I put the mask on and 100%. FO beat me to it, and yanked the throttles, pitched over. I banked us and popped the speedbrakes and told FO to call a mayday and ensure the cabin had masks while we plummeted to 10K!"

Maybe such stories are out there but I haven't read a one... anybody??

 

[Dash8]

who's gonna admit to shltting their pants??

 

[2000flyer]

Ok, isn't this the most violated reg out there? I've heard some pilots placing their mask in their laps above 410.

No comment

BTW, placing a "quick donning" mask in your lap no longer qualifies it as quick donning. That is verbatum from the Ops Manaul on the Citation Ultra.

 

[Vik]

I take it you have not seen the "diarreah" therad in the Cargo forum

who's gonna admit to shltting their pants??

 

[Kingairrick]

who's gonna admit to shltting their pants??

Yo!!!

 

[Thedude]

who's gonna admit to shltting their pants??

Guys that have been around the block and are not afraid to admit that they dont know everyting.

 

[Daveman]

No comment

BTW, placing a "quick donning" mask in your lap no longer qualifies it as quick donning. That is verbatum from the Ops Manaul on the Citation Ultra.

Ahh, good answer. Plus putting the eros mask back in place can be a pain in the a$$.

 

[ultrarunner]

I wonder if the new generation airliners will ever be certified to operate above 410.

The 7E7 comes to mind. Nice new generation wing, new engines, etc... It could be an airplane that could take advantage of FL's above 410. Do you think Boeing will need to cert. it to operate it above 410 to meet the sfc and range guarantees?

Or is it more 'operator driven'?

What's the part 25 cert for decent? ED to 150 in in a max of 4.5 minutes? I think that's it.

 

[GravityHater]

You should know the regs BOYYYYYYY!

If they were in plain english I might have a hope. As it is I struggle though, but always with some doubt.

 

[User546]

Ok, isn't this the most violated reg out there?

Isn't that THE TRUTH!

 

[mattpilot]

no wonder pilots are against the proposal to put cameras into the cockpit

 

[Cutlass1287]

who's gonna admit to shltting their pants??

Actually I.......
......am not quite ready to share that one yet.

 

[PGH STEEL]

I was at 350 when the door seal went on a C550 about 30 East of Indy. With a very loud rush of air we both knew what it was and started down hill. I remember thinking to myself dam thats a lot louder than I thought it would be. Wile in the emer descent with the masks on, ATC and other A/C around could not understand my distress call so I lifted the masks and picked up the hand mic and in the time it took to make the call I felt this overwelming sence of ergency to get the masks back on. Just that quick I started to feel it , I cant even imagine having a window fail at Alt. Well our 6 paxs and us made is safely to indy and I now have a new found respect for high alt operation.

 

[EagleRJ]

Everyone here who routinely flies in the 20s or above should get themselves into an altitude chamber ride!

Everyone has different reactions to slow-onset hypoxia, and it's important to know yours. It will also give you the opportunity to experience a rapid decompression. I've done it, and there weren't any unintended loafs being pinched, but there usually is involuntary gas release from both ends of the GI tract. Not a problem- that's why you're putting on 100% O2!

 

[Dizel8]

I am not worried about the shatty part, but who would ever admit: " FO beat me to it". I mean really.................








I kid, I kid!

 

[mar]

Small correction

The pressure differential at that altitude between your body & outside air is so high that your blood starts moving so fast that it will actually boil.

My understanding is that Boyle's Law is applicable here.

The short version is this: a liquid will hold an amount of gas (nitrogen in this case) in direct proportion to the barometric pressure of the surrounding atmosphere.

Think of a bottle of soda pop. With the cap on, and contents under pressure, no bubbles are evident. Open the cap thereby lowering the surrounding barometric pressure and now CO2 gas comes out of solution and produces bubbles.

Same thing at altitude but it's a solution of N2 and blood.

It's more of a fizz than a boiling but bubbles nevertheless.

[Editted to add cool link]: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/aboyle.html

Cool thread. I defintely preflight my mask for a tight fit every flight.