duty times

[bizjet800]

Lets try again so you don't get busted....you're actually violating the "look back" part of the reg in that you haven't had 10 consecutive hours of rest in the last 24 hours upon completion of your duty period. 135.267(d) doesn't contain an explicit duty time limitation BUT crewmember MUST meet the rest requirements of 135.267(d). You'll notice the only allowance for anything to be exceeded "beyond the control of the operator" in all of 135.267 is ONLY flight time.

Even though your POI may be in agreement with you violating a rule, you won't have to answer to your POI when something happens, you will have to answer to an ALJ or the Board...your POI will also have to answer to them as well (at least you won't be alone). Again, there's a legal interpretation from the FAA's General Council that specifically talks about this. Just because you've been doing it this way for 17 years doesn't mean it's correct. Be careful, your hanging yourself out there.

Can you post the legal interpretation? I'd like to read that, perhaps I have had it wrong all these years.

 

[wingnutt]

tough call, I have worked for seven different 135 companies, and about half carry the same idea as YIP. The main thought being that one cannot plan on exceeding 14 hours...

Drunk passengers being late, Teterboro weather delays, ambulance getting lost to some podunk airport, a random aircraft with a blown tire that shutdown the runways; all rumors of situations that may have caused exceedence of duty times.

...and I cant even count the Part91 repo legs demanded, usually at the end of a 13.6 hour day, and home base is over an hour away. My response was always based on that idea that my tired brain does not care if I am 135 or 91

Honestly, I would like to know who decided (and how) a 14 hour workday was ever considered "normal"

 

[bizjet800]

Honestly, I would like to know who decided (and how) a 14 hour workday was ever considered "normal"

Pretty sure it wasn't a 135 freight company, they would have made 20 hours!

 

[pilotyip]

For arguments sake, I also happen to think that a 91 tail end ferry also must be included in duty time if it is required by the company. Flight time you may get a pass, but it is still company required duty in most cases and goes towards the 14 hours.

At our place it is always up to the crew to do a tail end ferry, you are given the option, would you like to do a 20 minute ferry back to LRD or go on a 30 minute cab ride to the cheapest hotel in MMIO at 0300?

 

[fu69atacafyeah]

The 91 tail end ferry is not in question.....that absolutely can go over 14 hours.

I'm not sure how to upload things to this forum.

 

[cloud_chaser]

tough call, I have worked for seven different 135 companies, and about half carry the same idea as YIP. The main thought being that one cannot plan on exceeding 14 hours...

Drunk passengers being late, Teterboro weather delays, ambulance getting lost to some podunk airport, a random aircraft with a blown tire that shutdown the runways; all rumors of situations that may have caused exceedence of duty times.

First of all, drunk pax shouldn't be allowed to board which gets into other problems, so flight cancelled.

With regards to the other excuses, if those cause you to block out knowingly to exceed 14hrs than that is violating the reg. You the pilot would be accepting a mission that is violating .267.

"Legal to start, legal to finish" is for the birds. Its an old timers mentality and its time to hang it up!

 

[wingnutt]

First of all, drunk pax shouldn't be allowed to board which gets into other problems, so flight cancelled.

With regards to the other excuses, if those cause you to block out knowingly to exceed 14hrs than that is violating the reg. You the pilot would be accepting a mission that is violating .267.

"Legal to start, legal to finish" is for the birds. Its an old timers mentality and its time to hang it up!

1) Oh I totally agree on the drunk part, but where is the line? I'm sure not gonna break out a breathalyzer when they show up late. If they come back smelling like beer but are walking straight, and cognizant of their surroundings...they get to fly

2) Again dont disagree, but not a ONE of those four reasons could possibly be known before blocking out...then again, wasn't that the point of the examples

3) Not my phrase either. But, here is the first legal paper I ever read...

http://www.fr8ghtdog.com/contract/Stephens.pdf

 

[cloud_chaser]

1) Oh I totally agree on the drunk part, but where is the line? I'm sure not gonna break out a breathalyzer when they show up late. If they come back smelling like beer but are walking straight, and cognizant of their surroundings...they get to fly

2) Again dont disagree, but not a ONE of those four reasons could possibly be known before blocking out...then again, wasn't that the point of the examples

3) Not my phrase either. But, here is the first legal paper I ever read...

http://www.fr8ghtdog.com/contract/Stephens.pdf

Thank you for backing the cliche', but it only deals with 121 interpretation. Its a moot point.. To my knowledge there are no reduced rest periods for 135.

Weather delays are verbally broadcasted over atis. Pilot calls for clearance and is immediately issued a EDCT. Flight cancelled if that EDCT prohibits you from completing the flight within 14hrs of duty. I know EDCTs come and go.
To further emphasize, if you block out knowingly to exceed 14hrs for a 135 mission your are breaking regs!

 

[osy007]

If your on the ground and you know that you will exceed 14 hrs, you can't take off...If you unknowingly exceed it in the air due to re-routes etc...You can exceed the 14 hours. If your on the ground at TEB waiting for pax and you are going over duty time, you have to cancel the trip.

Example...A cargo crew was violated for exceeding their duty time by 4 hours because their truck was late by 4 hours. They thought that this was "out of their control" and they were legal to continue.

 

[pilotyip]

If your on the ground and you know that you will exceed 14 hrs, you can't take off...If you unknowingly exceed it in the air due to re-routes etc...You can exceed the 14 hours. If your on the ground at TEB waiting for pax and you are going over duty time, you have to cancel the trip.

Example...A cargo crew was violated for exceeding their duty time by 4 hours because their truck was late by 4 hours. They thought that this was "out of their control" and they were legal to continue.

We talking 135 or 121 here?

 

[DC3Flyer]

The whole argument rests on chapter d:

(d) Each assignment under paragraph (b) of this section must provide for at least 10 consecutive hours of rest during the 24-hour period that precedes the planned completion time of the assignment.

This says it all--planned completion.

Agree with you and YIP....our FSDO which is different than YIP's interprets it the same way.

Like someone mentioned....if something happens after the 14 hours they'll get you for careless and reckless however.

 

[bizjet800]

Agree with you and YIP....our FSDO which is different than YIP's interprets it the same way.

Like someone mentioned....if something happens after the 14 hours they'll get you for careless and reckless however.

Yeah but like a previous post said, it's not your FSDO that decides, it's the ALJ. No doubt going over duty day by 4 hours is careless, but 30 or 60 minutes is debatable.

 

[100-1/2]

what four things lets you pass on the 14 hour duty day?

Well, if you are an operator in OH22 or AWM, it never hurts to have a couple of Feds and the FSDO Mgr on your payroll. Years of blowing 14 Duty been reported but never fined, sanctioned or otherwise violated.

100-1/2

 

[ksu_aviator]

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...s/2012/kidd - (2012) legal interpretation.pdf

Page 2, next to last paragraph.

You can continue beyond the implied 14 hour duty day for late pax/cargo, ATC delays, mechanical problems or weather.

The pathetic part of that legal interpretation is that it doesn't set a limit. So, if the flight was realistically scheduled to be completed with required rest, it doesn't matter if it take 100 days to complete the flight. I know that's ridiculously over stated, but you get the point. One hundred seconds, minutes, hours or days are all "legal" in this poorly worded interpretation.

 

[ksu_aviator]

If your on the ground and you know that you will exceed 14 hrs, you can't take off...If you unknowingly exceed it in the air due to re-routes etc...You can exceed the 14 hours. If your on the ground at TEB waiting for pax and you are going over duty time, you have to cancel the trip.

Example...A cargo crew was violated for exceeding their duty time by 4 hours because their truck was late by 4 hours. They thought that this was "out of their control" and they were legal to continue.

They changed the interpretation. It was illegal then, not now.

 

[wingnutt]

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...s/2012/kidd - (2012) legal interpretation.pdf

Page 2, next to last paragraph.

You can continue beyond the implied 14 hour duty day for late pax/cargo, ATC delays, mechanical problems or weather.

Thank you sir...i knew it was out there somewhere, but no way could i find it :beer:

Example...A cargo crew was violated for exceeding their duty time by 4 hours because their truck was late by 4 hours. They thought that this was "out of their control" and they were legal to continue.

EDIT in that i found the one osy was probably referring to, but not for the reasons he may think...

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...0/civil_penalty/CaseFile/view/1995/1995-8.pdf

On page 4, it says exactly the same thing from 1995 as KSU's link from 2012...

Thus, paragraph (d) cannot be construed as a hard and fast rule that 14 hours of duty time must never, under any circumstances, be exceeded...The key to applicability is in the final phrase planned completion of the assignment. If original planning is upset for reasons beyond control of the operator, the flight may be conducted even though crew duty time may exceed 14 hours.

...but note the cargo crew wasnt fined for merely blowing the 14 hour rule, but for not having a planned completion time

 

[ksu_aviator]

Thank you sir...i knew it was out there somewhere, but no way could i find it :beer:



EDIT in that i found the one osy was probably referring to, but not for the reasons he may think...

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...0/civil_penalty/CaseFile/view/1995/1995-8.pdf

On page 4, it says exactly the same thing from 1995 as KSU's link from 2012...

Thus, paragraph (d) cannot be construed as a hard and fast rule that 14 hours of duty time must never, under any circumstances, be exceeded...The key to applicability is in the final phrase planned completion of the assignment. If original planning is upset for reasons beyond control of the operator, the flight may be conducted even though crew duty time may exceed 14 hours.

...but note the cargo crew wasnt fined for merely blowing the 14 hour rule, but for not having a planned completion time

And there has been some debate over whether or not a flight is planned if it departs late. The thinking is, by arriving late the passengers rescheduled the leg and the flight is no longer in compliance. And you can debate operational control and all kinds of other issues.

Some would argue, as I did, that you had to depart knowing the duty time would not be exceeded. Depart was widely excepted to mean doors closed. So, you could block out on time and, for reasons beyond your control, be delayed taking off or have to hold enroute and not be worried about it being considered a violation. However, if you had to open the door (for refuel or maintenance) you were done for the day.

This new interpretation ends that debate by including late passengers/cargo. If they arrive late, you know you are exceeding the duty day and you can still take off. I don't like it, but what are you going to do?

My company has been smart enough to put a limit on our duty for late passengers in our GOM along with extended rest rules that mirror scheduled operators. We can't get those approved in the Ops/Mgmt specs as we cannot PLAN on being late. But, if the passengers are late, we can depart and we will be given compensatory rest voluntarily by the company. It is a highly nuanced position, but a good one.

 

[X-rated]

For arguments sake, I also happen to think that a 91 tail end ferry also must be included in duty time if it is required by the company. Flight time you may get a pass, but it is still company required duty in most cases and goes towards the 14 hours.

It is supposed to be included as duty since you are not free of all company related duties and it is not rest. however, Part 135 does not have a defined maximum duty period. The only limiting factor is requirement to always be able to look-back and see 10 consecutive hours of rest in the previous 24 hours to operate an aircraft under Pt 135 rules. Pt 135 regs don't say anything about how long your duty time can be. If your company wants you to do Jepp revisions after 14 hours of duty, it's completely legal so long as you don't fly a pt 135 flight again until you can look-back and see 10 hours of consecutive rest. Operating pt 91 has no flight time or rest limitations. The fact that you fly a pt 91 leg after a pt 135 duty period does not require you to comply with pt 135 rules on the pt 91 flight.

 

[bizjet800]

One could easily argue that you DO have control over your passengers, i.e., be on time or you can't go. I believe the FAA left this a little vague because they knew things can get delayed, passengers stuck in traffic, headwinds, ATC delays etc. I've always believed if you did your diligence, and you are slightly over 14 hours, the FAA isn't going to expend their resources to prosecute you. Is there a case where a crew was violated for going over 20 or 45 minutes?

 

[wingnutt]

^^^ i can agree with that. I dare say that most 14 hour days are multiple legs, and a 15 minute snafu on each leg can add up pretty fast. However, our passengers got constant updates if it was gonna be a long day, so they were aware what time we would turn into pumpkins...

...that said, I dont think I ever went more than about an hour over