Duty Time Question

[futurepizzaguy]

Just reading the new SOPs and wondering if anyone else sees it the duty time rules a little more lenient now than they were.

"Duty time may be extended (only if the delay is on the last flight of the day ad the day was reasonably scheduled to be completed in 14 hours) by up to 90 minutes due to circumstances beyond the control of the company or crew (ATC, WX, maintenance or passengers)"

To me, this sounds like now we can go beyond our 14 hr duty day (Though for the record I will never work 14 hrs or more). Just sounds like a battle now instead of a simple "Can't do it". I always thought our 14 hour rule was one of the few rights we had and now it looks like that is not the case anymore. Bottom line question....if passengers show up an hour late causing us to work a 15 hr duty day.....does scheduling still expect us to do the trip?

I have heard this is going on
1. Quick-turns scheduled very quick (even 4minutes)
2. A discrepency between passenger requested departure times and what the crew sees on their blackberry

This would fall into my big concern "reasonably scheduled"??? A 4 ,inute quick-turn doesnt seem to fall in that category of reasonable.

How is everybody handling this and is it happening often?

 

[slowto250]

Oh, it's legal alright. Provided the trip wasn't scheduled to exceed your duty limit, your only way out is to play the crew fatigue hole card. Look for more of this bull$hit than ever before, in these days of labor-management strife.

 

[Live4flyng]

I would argue that passenger delays are not a valid reason for exceeding the 14 hour duty limit. If you block out knowing that you are going to exceed 14 hours of duty, a violation may have occured. In flight WX deviations are a valid reason (beyond your control) after block out.


Did I spell everything correctly slowto250?

 

[guido411]

I have heard this is going on
1. Quick-turns scheduled very quick (even 4minutes)
2. A discrepency between passenger requested departure times and what the crew sees on their blackberry

This would fall into my big concern "reasonably scheduled"??? A 4 ,inute quick-turn doesnt seem to fall in that category of reasonable.

How is everybody handling this and is it happening often?

YES!! This IS happening and ONCE is too often! This seems to be the schedulers' fix for many time issues, just reduce the turn time and keep departure time the same. Then they don't have to tell the pax to expect a late plane, the pilots can deal with that with their new improved "planeside manners".

One of many examples. . .we arrive at our last destination on late evening of Day X. Scheduled for 10:01 of rest for a departure in the morning to repo and pick up pax (if there's one thing they're really good at it's getting you minimum rest). The only hotel not sold out is a shanty that is about an hour away from the airport. After posting, MELing, and cleaning we duty off about 1.5 hours after block in. Now down to 09:01 of scheduled rest, plus we have that 00:30 of travel time "not local in nature" to get to the FBO in the morning so we're at 08:31 of rest. Schedulers decide to push the repo back to get us 10:00 of rest even though that means we're leaving on the repo leg AFTER scheduled departure time for the LIVE leg. Unacceptable. Refused the trips. I am good with pax but I'm not going to let them set me up to fail like that.

As for discrepancies on pax schedules and BB schedules I haven't seen it but that doesn't mean it doesn.t happen. The pax tell us they're lied to all the time so I wouldn't put it past them.

As for the over 14 hour thing, 'fraid many pilots will bend when seeing pax that are upset about being delayed because of duty expiration. Honestly, I have gone over 14 hours ONCE for a pax that was IN the aircraft, he was actually an hour and a half early because of delay pssibilties. We got in the airplane right before EDCT with instructioins to call prior to start, then advised us more delays over WHITE (TEB south departures). So we bit the bullet, totally not his fault. But if a pax is late when he's scheduled for an 8 pm departurte I will have no hard feelings about saying "sorry charlie". Pax will learn to show up on time for those evening departures.

The catchall in the SOP that IS for us is that we have the final authoirty to accept or decline a trip. Be strong, tell the PM you're tired of 14 hour GOALS instead of limits, thus you're too tired to exceed the 14 hours. And don't forget to play the reduced duty/extended rest card EVERY time you do 3 days of over 12 hours!

 

[slowto250]

I would argue that passenger delays are not a valid reason for exceeding the 14 hour duty limit. If you block out knowing that you are going to exceed 14 hours of duty, a violation may have occured. In flight WX deviations are a valid reason (beyond your control) after block out.


Did I spell everything correctly slowto250?

You did indeed. LOL....guess I had that coming, Live4. More to the point, I agree with your interpretation of duty time limits. However, when I have brought this gray area of the regs to the attention of both the feds as well as our ops guys, they are all of the opinion that scheduled duty time is the only relevant factor. I've argued this point ad nauseum, but WTF do I know, I'm just the hired help. Kinda encourages schedulers and dispatchers to collude with the Pax, in order to circumvent the intent of the regulation.

 

[hopeIcan]

Are the SOP's contrary to the regulations? I have not seen a rule change for the 91K flight, duty, rest time reg.