Dump Duane Worth ALPA

[AA717driver]

An SOS for drug screening? I'm cleaning my coffee of the screen...

I don't doubt that. But that's what was the hot topic at the time.

OK Dan Brannan. If you have read Flying the Line, it is quite clear that Duffy Did not want an SOS. An SOS is a nuclear hand grenade. Quit calling for it cause it only gives a woodie to the radicals and ignorant.

Ok, when should it be used? When the 1113 was threatened? Having a nuke means nothing without the will to use it.

Because we are professionals... Do you see doctors striking.... If you want to go PATCO, then create the Ignorant Militant Pilots Association. (IMPA) Go kill your career and job... I'd like to keep mine thank you...

We are UNION members. ALPA is a UNION, not a country club. (Well, maybe for some...)

You forgot your "Bitter TWA pilot-I hate ALPA" disclaimer.... :beer:

Basically, you refuted all of my arguments with "we mustn't change the status quo". You advocate fixing ALPA by not changing anything.

Everything's fine Rez, see, the band is still playing and the lights are on. Never mind the seawater lapping at your feet. TC

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I don't doubt that. But that's what was the hot topic at the time.

uh..ok... but that was "at the time' not right now.

Ok, when should it be used? When the 1113 was threatened? Having a nuke means nothing without the will to use it.

Your reply suggests a SOS is a workable option. It is not. Get over it... Try and figure out how to work the system not destroy it...

PATCO PATCO PATCO....

We are UNION members. ALPA is a UNION, not a country club. (Well, maybe for some...)

Country Club? Yeah for 90% of the members who don't particpate in thier union...


keep reading...

Basically, you refuted all of my arguments with "we mustn't change the status quo". You advocate fixing ALPA by not changing anything.

I'm not about the status quo. I am about innovation and change for the better. But trying to use old school experiments that never worked in the past, such as SOS, National Seniority List, National Pay Scales, etc, only show how not only that....you are stuck in the golden days of aviation, but you really don't know your systems. You do not understand. Your fustration comes from your lack of understaning... not ALPA's performance. As long as guys still think non-workable solutions are needed we will only be living in the past.

I don't know what all the answers are. I do know, however, that we need to come together as an Association. With current levels of membership particaption, how can you really blame the leadership, when guys won't even come to meetings, vote in the elections and picket the property.

Sorry... until we start taking responsibility for ourselves and taking ownership of the problems can we solve them.

Everything's fine Rez, see, the band is still playing and the lights are on. Never mind the seawater lapping at your feet. TC

Nope, everything is not fine. But guys like you need to stop the rest of us from trying to move forward. Rather why don't you stop pulling back and start pushing forward....

How do you even know a SOS will work? With UAL, NWA and DAL pilots all voting to save thier jobs, why do you think there would be support to go on a experimental SOS and lose thier jobs.

I am calling you out! If an SOS is a workable idea, then please provide a detailed plan of how to organize it, implement it and ensure with reasonable precentage points that it would be a gain in the short AND long term.

SOS rhetoric comes from those with the luxury of trash talking without the burden of responsibility.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

ALPA is totally incapable of protecting you from the company,

Really??? I know of a couple of pilots who would disagree with that statement, including the one who kicked an FAA inspector off the J/S...ALPA retained the services of an outside legal firm for that one.

Maybe on your property, ALPA is incapable of protecting you from the company...but thats more a reflection of your fellow pilots than it is on ALPA.

Tejas

 

[AA717driver]

Rez--You've got me all wrong. I've never advocated an SOS now. It's too late. Other than FedEx what former ALPA Major hasn't had its contract gutted?

I told you why. No one from the bottom to the top would take a stand. No one would put ANYTHING on the line to preserve their pay and workrules because they knew no other ALPA carrier would stand with them. You even made the point yourself when you declared: "Go kill your career and job... I'd like to keep mine thank you...". How low will you go? Will you take ANY contract handed you by management just to preserve your flying "career"? Or are you on the dole at Herndon?

That's a failure of ALPA National to bring the MEC's together and form a plan and it's a failure of the MEC's to educate their respective groups and, more than anything, it's a failure of individual pilots to be willing to take a stand to preserve what they had.

The train has left the station. You can advocate increased participation on an individual level all you want but the damage is done.

You worry about the nuclear option being used by ALPA--guess what? The airlines already used their nuclear option and they won the war.

I contend that airline pilots have three options at this point. They can stick with ALPA and wait till their fellow pilots get pi$$ed off enough to begin participating--to what end, I don't know (I guess if the President of ALPA attends enough cocktail parties in D.C. something might change...). Maybe ALPAPAC can get the RLA done away with. (Imagine the cries of anguish from the airline board rooms if that happened. Also, maybe ALPA could team up with the railroad union whose members are even more abused by their management than pilots are by theirs. I will say that on an individual representation basis, ALPA is far more effective than the railroad union.)

They could get pi$$ed off enough to leave ALPA and form a new national union vowing to never again make the same mistakes that led to the disunity that allowed airline management to dominate the pilot groups.

Or, IMO the most likely scenario, do nothing and hope to make it to retirement with enough in their 401k's to avoid donning the blue or orange apron.

But at this point, I guess I'll call you out. Are you a line pilot for your airline (current, qualified, bidding and flying a line of time) or are you being paid by the union for being off schedule working for ALPA? Everyone here knows where I come from. No one knows anything about you. TC

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez--You've got me all wrong. I've never advocated an SOS now. It's too late. Other than FedEx what former ALPA Major hasn't had its contract gutted?

Ugh ok... either your changing you tune or coming to the middle...

Gutted contract? OK.. sure, but why is that ALPA's fault? The membership voted in these contracts. Are you saying ALPA National should've removed the democratic process? or what are you saying?

I told you why. No one from the bottom to the top would take a stand. No one would put ANYTHING on the line to preserve their pay and workrules because they knew no other ALPA carrier would stand with them. You even made the point yourself when you declared: "Go kill your career and job... I'd like to keep mine thank you...". How low will you go? Will you take ANY contract handed you by management just to preserve your flying "career"? Or are you on the dole at Herndon?

Challenging me.. asking how low would I go....cute...

Why do you expect pilots to put anything on the line? Pilots are democratically voting to save thier jobs. If you are going to be mad, then be mad at ALL the pilots. It is thier collective will. Why do you expect one guy or one group to fall on thier swords? Waht does that get them besides a memorial in your crewroom and personal BK.

That's a failure of ALPA National to bring the MEC's together and form a plan and it's a failure of the MEC's to educate their respective groups and, more than anything, it's a failure of individual pilots to be willing to take a stand to preserve what they had.

ALPA national? What? Why didn't the 2002BOD and 2004BOD direct ALPA national. ALPA National is four guys. C'mon if you want a band of brothers look at the MEC's not national. Look at the BOD.

The train has left the station. You can advocate increased participation on an individual level all you want but the damage is done.

So then what? just misery, apathy and cynism? Why not pick up the pieces, learn from our mistakes and make it better....??

You worry about the nuclear option being used by ALPA--guess what? The airlines already used their nuclear option and they won the war.

ok... if that is what you believe.. but what are you going to do? Be managements biotch? Let the spoils go to the victor? Take the ball gag out of your mouth, cut yourself free of the gimp leash and be an AIR LINE PILOT!

If you don't believe there is no future, then get out. Some one will have to fly jets in 10 years and it should be us. Some of us are trying to rebuild. If you don't want to help then get out of the way...

I contend that airline pilots have three options at this point. They can stick with ALPA and wait till their fellow pilots get pi$$ed off enough to begin participating--to what end, I don't know (I guess if the President of ALPA attends enough cocktail parties in D.C. something might change...). Maybe ALPAPAC can get the RLA done away with. (Imagine the cries of anguish from the airline board rooms if that happened. Also, maybe ALPA could team up with the railroad union whose members are even more abused by their management than pilots are by theirs. I will say that on an individual representation basis, ALPA is far more effective than the railroad union.)

At least you are advocating the PAC.

They could get pi$$ed off enough to leave ALPA and form a new national union vowing to never again make the same mistakes that led to the disunity that allowed airline management to dominate the pilot groups.

Right... cause a new union would be so much better than the lack of particpation is this one...

Or, IMO the most likely scenario, do nothing and hope to make it to retirement with enough in their 401k's to avoid donning the blue or orange apron.

And that is ALPA nationals fault? Or is it the membership do nothing gang?

But at this point, I guess I'll call you out. Are you a line pilot for your airline (current, qualified, bidding and flying a line of time) or are you being paid by the union for being off schedule working for ALPA? Everyone here knows where I come from. No one knows anything about you. TC

I've suffered the last five years just as much as you. Maybe I haven't lost a retirements, but I am pretty tired of the furloughs, displacements, constant juniority and first year pay. Every Air Line Pilot has suffered. Quit trying to carve out your own river to cry. We all have our own.....

But I am not giving up. I am not playing the blame game. I believe in this profession and I am sticking around to fight and fly 10 years from now.

The anger, bitterness and cynicsim is counter productive. It holds us back. Whether we like it or not DW might be the next President. Regardless it is time to man up and take responsiblity for our own profession and out own careers....

 

[bendover]

Duane has failed all alpa members by his lack of leadership. They failed on the RJ issue. Letting the flying go to regionals.
Alpa for the majors and Alpa for the regionals is a joke a complete conflict of interest there should be two different unions representing each's interest.
How come Worth pulls in excess of 500k a year when everyone eles has taken between 30-60% pay cuts. where is his lead by example?
Why is Worth and alpa national silent now when the age 60 thing is coming down the pipe in congress. Is it because Duane will be turning 60 in the next year or so? Even though the alpa poll showed overwelming support for NOT changeing the age. Where is Duane and national in Wash.DC?

 

[hoover]

Duane worth is up for reelection to another 5 year term . Why isn't there a ground swell movement to get rid of this guy. He has led alpa while we have seen the profession decimated by mgmt . salaries have fallen move than in any other time in aviation history. retirements have eliminated or drastically reduced. work rules have been trashed. Multiple bankruptsys of alpa carriers. NWA. Delta. United. Usair. ATA. America West. TWA.aloha, Comair,Mesaba, all have one thing in common ALL represented by ALPA!!!!!!!!!!
American,UPS, Jetblue ,Southwest, Airtran, Continental. also have something in common, NO ALPA independant unions and all seem to be healthy and profitable is the a relationship here?
Alpa needs new leadership and direction. its lost its focus it doesn't represent the pilots anymore it represents its self its become a beauracracy. how come duane worth hasn't taken a 40% pay cut on his salary just like all the carriers pilots he supposively represents?

Because clearly if DW had not been ALPA president, 9/11 would not have happened, the economy would not have turned south, oil prices would not have spiked above $70 a barrel, and half a dozen major carriers would not have declared BK. Yet on the other hand, if DW had not been in charge, then maybe RJ's would be on mainline properties, and pilot groups would not have been strong-arming airline managements into giving their pilots "industry leading" 30%+ raises. Hmm...you may have a point.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Because clearly if DW had not been ALPA president, 9/11 would not have happened, the economy would not have turned south, oil prices would not have spiked above $70 a barrel, and half a dozen major carriers would not have declared BK. Yet on the other hand, if DW had not been in charge, then maybe RJ's would be on mainline properties, and pilot groups would not have been strong-arming airline managements into giving their pilots "industry leading" 30%+ raises. Hmm...you may have a point.

I think you're on the right track, hoover.

I read on the internet that Duane caused SARS, 9/11, skyrocketing oil prices, the Mess-o-potamia, and the break-up of Brad and Jen.

I'd be willing to blame Duane for all the ills of the profession in the past few years if we all agreed to give him credit for all the gains (UAL and DAL contracts) that also occurred on his watch.

Won't happen though. Blame flows easier than accolades.

I think we learned it from our passengers. A pilot can skillfully negotiate through a tricky line of thunderstorms, make brilliant decisions on fuel-management and contingency planning, followed by a successful arrival to a high-denisity Class "B" airport, only to be greeted with chirpy sniping by deplaning passengers because the landing was a little firm.

Duane Woerth is the "Al Haynes" of ALPA leadership: Handed a series of disasters outside of his control, he's doing all the "steering" possible under the circumstances. Some geniuses are focused on the casualties and not the survivors.

Rough crowd...

 

[BoilerUP]

I think you're on the right track, hoover.

I read on the internet that Duane caused SARS, 9/11, skyrocketing oil prices, the Mess-o-potamia, and the break-up of Brad and Jen.

I'd be willing to blame Duane for all the ills of the profession in the past few years if we all agreed to give him credit for all the gains (UAL and DAL contracts) that also occurred on his watch.

Won't happen though. Blame flows easier than accolades.

I read in an US Weekly left on the plane that Woerth was more responsible for Bennifer than Brad & Jen. He's also keeping Nicole Richie from eating.

And don't forget avian flu and the A380 delivery delays. Those reek of Duane-ness...

 

[100 c.i.]

I read in an US Weekly left on the plane that Woerth was more responsible for Bennifer than Brad & Jen. He's also keeping Nicole Richie from eating.

And don't forget avian flu and the A380 delivery delays. Those reek of Duane-ness...

Can you say worthlesssssssssssss!

 

[Occam's Razor]

Can you say worthlesssssssssssss!

Can you spell it correctlyyyyyyy?

Methinks you're not quite keeping up here.

Read faster. Type slower.

Peace, out.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Duane has failed all alpa members by his lack of leadership.

That might be true. Can you priovide examples and details. What exactly do you mean?

They failed on the RJ issue. Letting the flying go to regionals.

How? Specifically, what actions did ALPA take or not take to fail on the RJ issue?

Alpa for the majors and Alpa for the regionals is a joke a complete conflict of interest there should be two different unions representing each's interest.

How would two different unions be better. can you explain your comments? Do they have pragmatism. I am starting to beleive that your comments are just something you over heard the "Cool" guys say int he crewroom.

How come Worth pulls in excess of 500k a year when everyone eles has taken between 30-60% pay cuts. where is his lead by example?

Get your facts straight, then I will listen to what you have to say...

Don't take my responses as pro DW, rather anti ignorance.

Why is Worth and alpa national silent now when the age 60 thing is coming down the pipe in congress. Is it because Duane will be turning 60 in the next year or so? Even though the alpa poll showed overwelming support for NOT changeing the age. Where is Duane and national in Wash.DC?

Now I know you don't know what you are talking about.













































Wanna bet?

 

[Rekks Inbound]

Rez,

Sorry, been out flying, so didn't get a chance to get back. To answer your question, yes, I've walked that path. Some meetings we only had a few, some upwards of 18-20+.

It's not easy, remember most pilots don't live in domicile, so they aren't going to commute in on a precious day off just for a union meeting. But there are ways around that problem, one just has to be creative.

As an example of lack of leadership from National, our LEC tried to have a 'Family Awareness Day' on LABOR DAY of all days! We had more than enough money in our budget to cover expenses, it just had to be released by National. Guess who's rally ended up getting cancelled, because National wouldn't approve it?

This is the disconnect between line pilots and DW, CB and all the others in Washington. They need to go, all of them, they have lost touch.

Peace.

Rekks (former LEC Chair)

 

[Huck]

whens the last time the Top Management of ALPA (Worthless) was on the news

When it was Randy Babbitt.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez,

Sorry, been out flying, so didn't get a chance to get back. To answer your question, yes, I've walked that path. Some meetings we only had a few, some upwards of 18-20+.

Cool......

It's not easy, remember most pilots don't live in domicile, so they aren't going to commute in on a precious day off just for a union meeting. But there are ways around that problem, one just has to be creative.

Very true. It is tough.... but what can one say... I realize a precious day off is exactly that.... precious. It is valuable and priceless.

Time (off) is like money... I liken it to insurance... You can save a few bucks by not paying premiums, but when (not if) you need to make a claim you are screwed.

So in this case, the average line pilot should should be spending the time... if they don't, they won't have what is needed in terms of education and information to handle the situation. Also, it weakens unity, which is basic yet paramount..

I looked up the Constitution and By laws... LEC's are to have meetings once a quarter...

As an example of lack of leadership from National, our LEC tried to have a 'Family Awareness Day' on LABOR DAY of all days! We had more than enough money in our budget to cover expenses, it just had to be released by National. Guess who's rally ended up getting cancelled, because National wouldn't approve it?

Do you have more info...? I'm not sure ALPA National would all out stop a Family Awareness Day. Was it beacuse you were trying to do something unique?

This is the disconnect between line pilots and DW, CB and all the others in Washington. They need to go, all of them, they have lost touch.

Peace.

Rekks (former LEC Chair)

I agree there is a disconnect. We need to re-connect....

However, let's not as individuals allow ourselves into a mexican stand off.... If ALPA National isn't on the high road.. doesn't mean we have to get off...


Thoughts?