Dual Received in King Air 350

[paulsalem]

The university I attend has a King Air 350 that DOES NOT require an SIC EXCEPT for insurance purposes. We have an internal "internship" that lets students sit right seat in it. The insurance company requires that the person in the right seat go though 61.55 training. And our university has put together a sylllabus to cover everything.

I understand I can't log it as SIC b/c as far as the FAA is concerned its a single pilot plane. What will it look like when I go to interivew (freight or regional) and have 60-100 hours of dual received (both PICs are MEIs). Would it help if I logged some ground training in the back of my log book?

I have done some research and this has been brought up on this board for smaller King Airs. With a couple small mods our King Air could require an SIC (as most of you know).

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[Whirlwind]

I've got 93 hours of King Air 350 time obtained in exactly that way, I have yet to have anyone question it.

Of course, I can answer technical questions about the airplane, as I flew every other leg, so perhaps that helps...

 

[paulsalem]

It does.....did they ask you anything about the airplane. If so could you give a few exampes?

Thanks

 

[tathepilot]

The university I attend has a King Air 350 that DOES NOT require an SIC EXCEPT for insurance purposes. We have an internal "internship" that lets students sit right seat in it. The insurance company requires that the person in the right seat go though 61.55 training. And our university has put together a sylllabus to cover everything.

I understand I can't log it as SIC b/c as far as the FAA is concerned its a single pilot plane. What will it look like when I go to interivew (freight or regional) and have 60-100 hours of dual received (both PICs are MEIs). Would it help if I logged some ground training in the back of my log book?

I have done some research and this has been brought up on this board for smaller King Airs. With a couple small mods our King Air could require an SIC (as most of you know).

Any help would be appreciated.

If a sic is required by (ops manual) or (insurance), and you meet 61.55.

log it

 

[350DRIVER]

You can log it as dual, you won't have any problems with the time at future interviews. People start running into problems when they log SIC time in equipment that is type certificated for single pilot operations but since the insurance company requires someone in the right seat they think they can now legally log the time, not true. The insurance company reqt's cannot over-ride far's or ops specs.

good luck, fun bird

3 5 0

 

[User546]

So if you log all that flight time as dual, are you required to have the "dual giving" pilot sign each entry in your logbook?

How also does this apply to a "dual giving" ATP rated pilot, that doesn't have an MEI license? I always understood that ATP had the right to give dual instruction in an airplane with the instructor ratings, having been covered by the ATP.

Anyone?

 

[Whirlwind]

Yes, he/she has to sign your logbook. I don't know about the ATP thing, not being an ATP myself. The pilot I flew with is a MEI and he signed every entry...

For what it's worth, dual or SIC, it is worth about the same thing, since it isn't PIC time. And considering that was my first turbine experience, much of it was indeed dual instruction.

 

[350DRIVER]

ATP can instruct give dual in air carrier ops, yes you would need the signature in your log. It would not be advisable nor smart to show up at an interview with a boat load of 350 time in your log with no type or no endorsements. How would one justify the flight time?. Another issue would be knowing the aircraft, what is the triple fed bus system?. If the interviewer sees this time then you will be expected to know the airplane and know it well.

 

[DAS at 10/250]

Take it for what it is worth, but.....

I flew with an outfit for about 6 months on and off on a B100 (King Air 100 w/Garrett motors). The insurance required a co-pilot so the company was paying. The PIC, an ATP rated pilot, was helping prepare me for my ATP ride. So, in addition to learning about turbine, pressure, engine speed levers, etc., we were covering ATP items on my legs. I logged all of this (60.2 HRs according to Logbook Pro) as Total Time, Multi, and Dual Received with remarks as ATP instruction received. ExpressJet never once asked me about the flights or the airplane. They DID ask me all about the Navaslow as this is the airplane I am logging PIC in.

Now, I am also doing the same thing in a B350 with another outfit. But, I have yet to put pen on paper due to the whole type rating thing. I'm still pondering this one.

 

[UGAflyer]

Say i'm flying right seat in a 90 or 200(no SIC issues) series King Air with a guy(also MEI) to build time and experience. I get my 5 hours of PIC required to give multi instruction, would it be a better idea to just keep logging dual received or would it be of any value to log dual given if you have a decent amount of knowledge of the airplane...like studying the flight safety books or something... It seems like that might just open a can of worms down the road but I was wondering if it would have any value and if anyone has done something like that?

 

[joelo88]

Say i'm flying right seat in a 90 or 200(no SICissues)series King Air with a guy(also MEI) to build time andexperience. Iget my 5 hours of PIC required to give multi instruction,would it be abetter idea to just keep logging dual received or would itbe of anyvalue to log dual given if you have a decent amount ofknowledge of theairplane...like studying the flight safety books orsomething... Itseems like that might just open a can of worms down theroad but I waswondering if it would have any value and if anyone hasdone somethinglike that?

UGA
i wouldn't see any reason to log it as dual given. just log it as picbased on sole manipulator. and there is certainly no reasonto log it asdual received as your friend will probably get sick ofsigning yourlogbook after awhile.

 

[xdashdriver]

I think there's some misconception about what instruction an ATP is allowed to give. He can only give instruction in air carrier operations. In FAA-speak that means a 121/135 outfit with an approved training program. So if you're being trained under 135/121, then the guy you're getting instruction from only needs an ATP with no CFI. Otherwise, if you're just getting instruction towards another (non 121/135) related operating privilege, rating or certificate, he needs a Flight Instructor Certificate with the applicable ratings on it.


Ray

 

[TopGun-MAV]

i have dual in a king air 90. the 350 is fore girls. the 90 is much faster and has more diddicult systems.
if you ever want to make it to the jets you will have to make a step up.

maverick

 

[paulsalem]

Right.......

 

[paulsalem]

i have dual in a king air 90. the 350 is fore girls. the 90 is much faster and has more diddicult systems.
if you ever want to make it to the jets you will have to make a step up.

maverick

WTF?

Dual is Dual.

LOL! you have dual in a C90 I have dual in 350. LOL!

I got my private in a 152, did you get yours in a 172? Want to gloat about that?


But thats for the advice Mr. 906 hours.

LOL!

 

[JAFI]

If the PIC had a restriction on his/her BE300/350 type rating "second in command required" you could log SIC because a SIC is FAR required. As far as recieving "Duel" for your ATP, unless you are in a 135/121 operation (and the Captain mostly never signs a log book) you need a CFI ME to sign your log book and record the "Instruction".
JAFI

 

[dogg]

The university I attend has a King Air 350 that DOES NOT require an SIC EXCEPT for insurance purposes. We have an internal "internship" that lets students sit right seat in it. The insurance company requires that the person in the right seat go though 61.55 training. And our university has put together a sylllabus to cover everything.

I understand I can't log it as SIC b/c as far as the FAA is concerned its a single pilot plane. What will it look like when I go to interivew (freight or regional) and have 60-100 hours of dual received (both PICs are MEIs). Would it help if I logged some ground training in the back of my log book?

I have done some research and this has been brought up on this board for smaller King Airs. With a couple small mods our King Air could require an SIC (as most of you know).

Any help would be appreciated.

I think that you are making to big a deal out of it. Log it just the way you would log time in any other trainer. At you experience level it will not get you hired over another guy. Hopefully it is mostly T/O and landing and V1 cuts as that would be worth something. If it is just seat warming, than it will come across as more of a novelty than anything else. I would not make a big deal out of it on a resume for now. You are probably going to be instructing and then hauling trash in a single for a couple a years anyway. Probably was fun. Hope you did not have to foot the bill for that beast..........

 

[paulsalem]

I'm not really worried, thanks for the input from everybody but Maverick. I think I will learn a lot from it. I will get to fly dead legs, not sure about pax legs, but still multi, turbine, and CRM experience.

No we don't have to foot the bill. However per the university's insurance the plane cannot fly pax without someone who has gone though 61.55 training sitting in the right seat. So without me, or someone else, they can't go. So I think I should get paid, but I guess there are people willing to do it for free (me included) so they don't have to worry about it.

Thanks again to everyone,

Paul

 

[A Squared]

If a sic is required by (ops manual) or (insurance), and you meet 61.55. log it

UHhhh, no, not true, the SIC has to be required by *the regulations*. Read 61.51

§61.51 Pilot logbooks.

(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:


(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or (2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or *the regulations* under which the flight is being conducted.

An insurance policy is not "the regulations". An Operations manual is not the regulations. An ops manual is essentially a company policy manual which has been reviewed by the FAA. Operations Specifications are regulatory, the Operations Manual is not. Regardless, the operation in question is a University which has neither Operations Specifications, nor an Operations Manual.

However per the university's insurance the plane cannot fly pax without someone who has gone though 61.55 training sitting in the right seat.

Completely irrelevant, see above

 

[paulsalem]

I know I can't log SIC (see my first post).

Per INSURANCE, the plane cannot fly pax w/o a guy in the right seat, or they would not receive any compensation in the event of a claim.

Thanks though