Dual Qualified

[ASApuppy]

Lets start a reasonable discussion on the merits of being dual qualified in the CR2/CR7 and now CR9.

First off, for the record, I'm opposed to dual qualification and even more opposed to one-rate. But, for the sake of argument, if something had to give, I'd choose to be dual qualified over being paid one rate. I bring this up out of discussions I've had over the new LAX operation. I can certainly see the operational advantages for Delta of being able to run CR7's on the busy days and CR2's on the slack days. With day lines only planned, this would not represent a scheduling nightmare.

A question for those of you that operate multiple equipment: How do you stay current? Are your checkrides in both or do they alternate? Do you carry 2 POH's or one big one with both sets of data? Do you feel safe jumping in between airframes?

I'm usually in the screw the company at all costs mode given the tone they set at negotiations, but I'm trying to step away from that and start a civilized discussion. Ultimately I do desire a healthy industry. Whether or not ASA can join those ranks is completely up to management.

Some things that I see in order to make this work without incidents (like melting a CR2 engine off the pylon when your look for detent power) is that we must actively fly both. No building of pure one type schedules. I say this for the safety aspect. Also, there should be an override for flying larger equipment. FO's should get at least 60% of the CA's override.

Those are my thoughts, please share yours. I'm off to go give airplane rides.

 

[CallmeJB]

Just a quick thought: Mainline pilots have always been qualified in mutiple series (727-100 and -200, 757-200 and -300, A319 A320 A321, etc). They carry multiple sets of data in their AFMs, usually on color coded pages. I *think* WN sets a distinction between 'classics' and 'NG', but otherwise those pilots fly, what, 6 different series numbers?

Now, pay? That's a different subject altogether.

 

[Sinca3]

I personally think that I could safely be dual rated in the 50 and 70. The 900 is a totally different airplane so no to that.
I hope some good discussion comes out of this from dual qualified pilots....
Skywest, PSA, Mesa or whoever else out there does it.
Cheers

 

[firstthird]

Southwest pilots fly the 737-300/500/700. Our books explain the differences for systems/procedures but all SWA pilots fly all of our aircraft. We only have the 3 different series though.

 

[Tim47SIP]

700 versus 900??

The 900 is a totally different airplane so no to that.

I thought that the 700 and 900 were relatively the same, system wise. What are the big differences in operational procedures?? Thanks.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Cr2/cr7

Why not, skywest flies the 70/90 seaters for 50 seat wages!

 

[CallmeJB]

Southwest pilots fly the 737-300/500/700. Our books explain the differences for systems/procedures but all SWA pilots fly all of our aircraft. We only have the 3 different series though.

My bad, thank you for the correct information.

 

[Sawmill]

Try landing a 700 the way you land a 200...if you survive, you will probably be out a job.

 

[TOOL CRIB]

Try landing a 700 the way you land a 200...if you survive, you will probably be out a job.

I've had students who took their commercial checkrides in two different airplanes. chandelles in a Cessna and landings in a Mooney. These are kids with 300 hours. Entirely different cockpits and systems. They did it. They got used to it. Quit whining.

 

[Tomct]

If they want us "Dual Qualified," that's fine....but it will be at 700 pay rates or they can STICK IT!!!

 

[urflyingme?!]

7/9 are the same, except in size. They are both worlds apart (much easier) to fly than the -200. (FADEC, better bleed systems, Leading Edge Devices)

The only real difference during normal ops is a few callouts and placing the thrust levers in the detents(sort of like autothrottles in T/O and Climb modes)

Oh ya, and don't chop the power like you do in the -200. (No trailing link, and you have to actually flare)

Training wise, we just had 2 days of 'class' and then we went to an IPT for an hour or 3. I did my IOE in the -900, all of it. First time I flew the -200 was online, same with the 7.

 

[jester757]

At CHQ they used to dual qualify us to fly both J-31 and SF-340 aircraft at the same time (reserve guys). Not to bad... but you had to think which airplane you are in.

Now I am qualified on 757-200, 767-300, 300ER and the 767-400 which is completely different (777 screens etc). They all have different motors and about 50 pages of differnces.

Botom line you can fly more than one plane at a time, BUT make sure it is something that will not screw up progression worse than it is right now.

Just my two cents.

 

[SkyWestCRJPilot]

I flew both the CRJ-200 and -700 at SkyWest. You figure out the differences and it works okay. It helps if you can bid to fly them often enough that you don't get too rusty on the one you're not flying as much. The pay being the same for the -200 and -700 there sucks but that's a different story. At CAL I fly the 757-200, 757-300, 767-200, and 767-400. The differences with those are huge compared with the CRJ-200/700. But the good thing is the pay is seperate at CAL for the 757 vs. 767.

 

[Slice121]

PC in the 200, PT in the 700 is how it has been going. Hate flying the 200 after being in the 700.

 

[shamrock]

I can certainly see the operational advantages for Delta of being able to run CR7's on the busy days and CR2's on the slack days. With day lines only planned, this would not represent a scheduling nightmare.

My question in response to this question is how will aircraft be cycled through LAX? Will there be a couple of 700s and a couple of 200s readily available out there so a decision can be made between the two on short notice or will it have to involve advanced planning and forethought, something ASA is seemingly incapable of.

I don't have a problem with dual rated pilots as long as the 200 pay is brought up to that of the 700, but I also have never flown the 700 so I can't comment on the challenges of hopping between the two. I'm speaking in theory.

 

[CJA]

I have flown both and the while there are differences, they are not enough to cause problems switching between the two. Proficiency can suffer and make it difficult if you don't fly one or the other for a long time. Other airlines do it and ASA's standards pilots do with no problems. Besides, it would be nice to be able to fly the 700 from time to time, what a blast. I am NOT for one pay rate for both.
Just curious and I should know the answer to this but for those of you that fly both the 757/767, do you have different pay rates for them?

 

[Tomct]

At Continental and AA they do! Delta and UA pay the same for 75/76, but pay more at DAL for 767-400 on up and at UA they pay more for 777/747. Understand that at DAL the 75/76 pay is at 767 pay rates....NOT 757 pay rates! If they want one payrate for the CRJ, pay needs to be at the LARGEST aircraft's payrate! (ie...to fly the 200,700 and 900 we need 900 pay for all three!!!)

 

[ASApuppy]

What is flawed with the concept of being paid an override for the CR7. You could say it's only 20 more seats, but I think Delta and United probably pay closer to ASM's, so the CR7 would pay more. I'm thinking on the neighborhood of 45% more. 40% in seats alone and 5% because it simply flys faster and covers more ground. If we lock in a concept of "I'll only do it if it's at the 70 rate" only covers us at todays rate. 5 or 10 years down the road we will find ourselves in a corner.

I'm glad to hear not too many people have issues with flying multiple types. So to move this discussion to pay. We have our foot in the door with our two rates. I don't want to see us let that door close. I think it is possible to accomplish both goals. I think management wants flexibility more than a couple of bucks an hour. And we want to maintain that couple of bucks an hour. Sounds like cheap flexibility. I do feel we need to give a little somewhere on the contract so show good faith. I'm thinking this is the most bang we could offer.

 

[wanagethi]

more seats equal more pay, at least everywhere except skywest

 

[Bizjet]

I have flown both and the while there are differences, they are not enough to cause problems switching between the two. Proficiency can suffer and make it difficult if you don't fly one or the other for a long time. Other airlines do it and ASA's standards pilots do with no problems. Besides, it would be nice to be able to fly the 700 from time to time, what a blast. I am NOT for one pay rate for both.
Just curious and I should know the answer to this but for those of you that fly both the 757/767, do you have different pay rates for them?

Most of the instructors think that dual qualification is a safety issue. They don't think the line pilots should be dual qualified. They have no choice working for the Gestapo management that runs the show over there. We own this and it should not be dealt away for some show of good faith. If you want to fly the 70 because it is a blast--bid it and fly it all the time. We have too many low time pilots to have them jumping from one to the other just to make our management happy.

 

[Peter Griffin]

more seats equal more pay, at least everywhere except skywest

Not true. Not saying its right, but its simply not true. Different models of the same a/c have different numbers of seats, but the pay is the same at the majors.

 

[Crash Pad]

more seats equal more pay, at least everywhere except skywest

Whoops don't forget the ATR at ASA.

 

[Dix-Bag]

more seats equal more pay, at least everywhere except skywest

....or America West/UsAirways
....or Frontier
....or Airtran
....or Alaska
....or Midwest Express
....or Southwest

 

[homerjdispatch]

So, should the pay be the same with a CRJ700 configured with 66 seats (UEX), a CRJ700 with 70 seats (DCI) and a CRJ 900 with 70 seats (DCI)? Do you change the pay on th CRJ 900 when you add the additional 6 seats allowed by Delta in 2007?

 

[CJA]

Most of the instructors think that dual qualification is a safety issue. They don't think the line pilots should be dual qualified. They have no choice working for the Gestapo management that runs the show over there. We own this and it should not be dealt away for some show of good faith. If you want to fly the 70 because it is a blast--bid it and fly it all the time. We have too many low time pilots to have them jumping from one to the other just to make our management happy.

"they have no choice.." sure they do, give their 30 day notice and go back to the line, just like your suggestion for me to bid the 70. It's not that I would want to fly the 70 just because it is a blast, but I don't have a problem with being dual qualified. You are correct about having too many low time pilots for them to be jumping around but the solution to that (which isn't going to happen) is to quit hiring them.