Drunk Captain & Going Below DH

[slomo]

What are the generally accepted answers to the questions on what you would do when the captain shows up with alcohol on his breath and the one who does not respond when you arrive at DH and airport is not in sight.?

 

[General Lee]

My answer would be "I would NEVER EVER let a DRUNK Captain go below DH----no way--especially if he is drunk......"

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[OPECJet]

"So you've flown with '________'".

 

[CatfishVT9]

Answers

I got asked both of these at a Pinnacle interview a few weeks ago. On the alcohol question, it was ambiguous, so think it through. I said we needed to resolve it before moving and ask hard questions of the folks involved (Capt or FA). Be proactive but not over-reactive. Hope this makes sense.

On the DH question, I said call minimums, call again emphatically with the term "waveoff" (old military coming out), then take the aircraft if he's still descending with no runway environment in sight. I emphasized that taking the aircraft was a serious action, but that safety of the aircraft and passengers is priority one. I also said that if that happened I would have a discussion with the captain after the flight and make certain I hadn't misread anything and discuss it further with the Chief Pilot. They seemed somewhat satisfied with that answer but asked "is there anyone else who could help out?" I was too stupid at the time to realize they were hinting to call "missed approach" over the radio to tower, since this will cancel your landing clearance.

In hindsight, the best answer would be; call minimums, call tower, then take the aircraft as a last resort.

Hope this helps,
Catfish

 

[WhiteCloud]

A drunk Captain raises the mins to 400 and 1/2 so that would be above DA (H). My real answer is to ask the Captain to call in sick first and assist him in seeking help for his problem. If he's belligerent just go up through the chain of command so the situation can be handled at the lowest level possible. Under NO circumstances do you fly with him/her.

 

[RJPilott]

If WX is at mins, a good Decent/Approach brief should uncover any intentions the Capt may have about going below DH and hopefully can be resolved before you even start the approach. However, fighting for aircraft control at 200 AGL is not a good idea no matter how wrong the Capt is by going below DH. Call missed, call it again on radio, then back him/her up. After, proceed to b1tch slap them once on the ground.

 

[xdashdriver]

Would you really be fighting for the controls? Is there substantial case history to back up the assumption that taking control of the aircraft would result in a tussle? I don't know, that's why I'm asking the question.

 

[RJPilott]

There is no place for ego in the cockpit i agree. But if the Capt is commited to busting mins, i'd probably think he would fight for control of the airplane. Do you want to find out if he will fight you with 3-5 seconds before impact? I dont, i want to make sure he is dead on the Glideslope and Loc if we are tounching down in a few short seconds. If you have already made the SOP two calls, that means you are already well below mins and probably at 100 AGL before even thinking of taking control. Not a good idea to say "My Airplane" at that point. But like i said above, and history does show, a good decent/approach brief will get both crewmembers on the same page before even starting the approach. I havent met to many liars in a briefing situation. If you feel the Capt has any intent on busting mins, this is the time you should speak up, not at 100 AGL.

 

[RJPilott]

almost forgot one thing. Most transport category aircraft have disconnecting ailerons and elevators if one or the other control surface becomes frozen. In order to dsconnect those surfaces a certain force needs to be applied. if the Capt is pushing down and you are pulling, there is a good chance you will disconnect the elevator and he will have control of the left elevator (pushing down) and you will have control of the right elevator (pulling up). Thats REAL bad Ju-Ju at 100 AGL. Not my kind of dance.

As far as history showing no fights for control after busting mins?
I dont think i want to rely on a few past history to see if my Capt will or will not fight for control so close to the ground. Call missed twice, once on radio, Back him up, make sure the Loc and GS are nailed, then make sure the CVR and FDR are pulled once safely on the ground. Again, it should never come to this if there is a good solid approach brief.

 

[ilinipilot]

Some good answers and more importantly actions you can take are.

Below DH :start moving your hands towards the throttle, address the CPT by his or her name, call ATC, increase the volume of your voice.

Drunk CPT is usually asked in terms of you are a new hire or probationary pilot:
Some good responses I heard are:
If you see the pilot drinking in the hotel bar during 8 hour window

Ask the pilot if your takeoff or show time has changed,
Do they know what time it is
Tell them its within the hour limit

If you suspect they are drunk or drinking:
take yourself off the flight,
If you are new ask someone more senior to you like an older FO what to do

The line I would give is this,
If the CPT is drunk or drinking with in limits you should remember that their actions affect not only them but The company, the passengers and every other employee.

D

 

[RJPilott]

In todays day and age of drunk pilots being the highlight of Jay Leno's or Dave Letterman's monologue, i would advise any pilot not to drink in a hotel bar even if it is outside of the 12 hour limit (most 121 carriers have 12 hour rule). Call me conservative on this issue, but i have seen too many pilots being noticed by a passenger while going through security saying to their friend, "Didnt i see him drinking last night at the Holiday Inn?". That said, ilinipilot gives good answers to the drunk issue. After questioning the pilot that they smell of alcohol (without initially accusing) and you are certain they are drunk, a union rep is another good way to get someone else involved should the pilot still want to fly (if there is a union). It will also keep pilots in general and Airlines out of the press due to the few that cant control their drinking.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

almost forgot one thing. Most transport category aircraft have disconnecting ailerons and elevators if one or the other control surface becomes frozen. In order to dsconnect those surfaces a certain force needs to be applied. if the Capt is pushing down and you are pulling, there is a good chance you will disconnect the elevator and he will have control of the left elevator (pushing down) and you will have control of the right elevator (pulling up). Thats REAL bad Ju-Ju at 100 AGL. Not my kind of dance.

That's why you reach over and pull off his headset first, or better yet, just give the hand signal for a left turn and knock him out.

 

[RJPilott]

lol... better yet, it helps if you're an FFDO. But i guess you better hope he is not an FFDO... huh?

 

[GogglesPisano]

He's still drunk by the time you shoot an approach?

Must've been one hell of an layover!

 

[jobear]

Call "Missed Approach" in a loud clear voice, autonomic response for all pilots is to intiate a go-around and you've covered your A$$ legaly.

Jobear

 

[PBRstreetgang]

OHOH,
"A drunk Captain raises the mins to 400 and 1/2 so that would be above DA (H). "
What if he/she is high minimums? Do you add the 100&1/2 to the "drunk cpt mins" or what about Cat II? OOOHHH my head hurts from the possibilities.
PBR
P.S. I know high mins cannot go Cat II, but we are talking about drunk capts.

 

[Orionpilot]

Captain Goes Below Mins

The airline gouge questions I am studying asks this question another way.
"During an approach, the Captain goes below the glideslope, what do you do? He keeps going below".
My response would be to call "below glideslope" with increasing assertiveness and then call for a go-around at some point, but how far would you go?

Thanks in advance,
Orionpilot

 

[WSurf]

If all else fails at the DH and he's still decending... Well just reach over suck the gear up and then watch his/her face.... But if ur going home... grrrrrr "what's the DH again.... never mind.. lights in sight continue.." LOL.....

 

[General Lee]

Call "missed approach" on the frequency---that cancels the approach clearance you just received.

If he looks drunk before the flight, tell him he is sick and that you will be too if he doesn't call in sick.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[bladeusa]

He's still drunk by the time you shoot an approach?

Must've been one hell of an layover!



Legal to start... Legal to finisshh =)~ hic-up

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Here's one aspect in these answers I haven't heard.
For one thing, a fight low to the ground is dangerous. I don't think anyone reasonably believes a fight for controls will ever occur at 150 ft AGL. One might consider that they are asking this question to see how you will react to an incapacitated captain in a tight situation. Do you have the S/A to realize you need to step in?

So....
1. Make the standard call at minimums.
2. If no action is taken by the Captain, make it again (more emphatically, using his name maybe.
3. If after two challenges, there is no response, ASSUME INCAPACITATION and execute the go-around.

I have seen this as standard procedure at one company.

Key words here being ASSUME INCAPACITATION.

 

[Thedude]

Drunk captain goes below mins...must have been a freight dog...

 

[RJPilott]

I agree with the incapacitation issue. That is why "back him up" i think is the best result in a transport category airplane.

1. If he is not incapacitated, you are moving the controls in the same direction for being on Loc and GS. (back him up)

2. If he is incapacitated, you are assuring a touchdown under emergency conditions instead of attempting a miss so close to the ground with switch of controls at 120-150 kts. (finishing up what was started)

3. If he is not incapacitated, and you attempt the missed, you will likely disconnect the elevator causing a severe roll at 100 AGL.

4. If you continue the approach and are unsure of your position relative to the runway to commence a missed, you shouldnt be at DH in the first place.

 

[WorldSeries]

The answer to the going below DH question is. you call Missed approach, if capt. does nothing you call it again and look to see if the capt has become incapicated. if they have you take the controls , if not and they are cheating below minimuns you dont take the controls! you call missed approach. you dont NOT want to fight for aircraft controls 100 ft. above the ground..the only time you want to take the controls is if is apparent that the captain wont make the landing. A pilot going below mins is wrong but to fight for controls low to the ground will cause more harm than good. your better off leting them land then going to your safety department with the incident. yes you have to say something right away. as a FO your just as responsible for the safety of the flight and to say well if it happens again is wrong cause your saying it is okay to go below mins just once.

 

[bandit110]

The people asking these questions have heard every response here. The best advice i have ever recieved about interviewing is:

"If you don't like the question you have been asked, answer a diffrent question."

ie: "Mr applicant, what would you do if a Captain went below minimums?"

answer: " I would make it my personal mission to conform to the companies SOP. Working for crap-shoot airlines involves being part of a team and working together in a pre-determined manner where all members of the team expect proper call outs actions and a positive attitude to keep the opperation safe and executed in a professional manner. If hired I would make it my goal to never be the weakest link in the system."

I never gave the answer to the question asked but I made a positive statment about my abitlity to work for the company. If they press it then give one of the canned responses.

 

[Sphincter Boy]

Thats what an autopilot is for. It's the designated driver.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

"If you don't like the question you have been asked, answer a diffrent question."

ie: "Mr applicant, what would you do if a Captain went below minimums?"

answer: " I would make it my personal mission to conform to the companies SOP. Working for crap-shoot airlines involves being part of a team and working together in a pre-determined manner where all members of the team expect proper call outs actions and a positive attitude to keep the opperation safe and executed in a professional manner. If hired I would make it my goal to never be the weakest link in the system."

I never gave the answer to the question asked but I made a positive statment about my abitlity to work for the company. If they press it then give one of the canned responses.

That is the WORST advice I've ever heard. Nobody wants to be bull$hitted. If I'm interviewing you and you give me a politician style don't-answer-the-question-asked, you don't stand a chance. You've pretty much lost me as a listener as soon as you pull something like that. It's intellectually dishonest and stupid. ALWAYS wrap up your answer with a summary that DIRECTLY answers the question asked.

 

[Obi-Wan]

Always take a few steps back. My answer would be that if the guy was drunk i would not takeoff in the first place, therefore I would not be in a situation like that. if you've got all the way to DH without noticing the capt is drunk, you are not doing your job.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Always take a few steps back. My answer would be that if the guy was drunk i would not takeoff in the first place, therefore I would not be in a situation like that. if you've got all the way to DH without noticing the capt is drunk, you are not doing your job.

Whoooooooshhhhh...right over the head....

 

[Mel Sharples]

When they ask if you would fly with a drunk captain, tell them in a very clear voice "that type of thing does not happen. Let's stick to things that are a real possibility." Then wait for a response.

NOTE: If this interview is for a job at Northwest, then the above does not apply. In that case, you say, "Are myself and the F/O drunk too, or just the captain?"

On the minimums question, I would ask the interviewer, "Is this the last leg of the trip? Because if it is, I don't want to miss the crew bus and I can't wait to be home. I would continue until I heard 'Sink rate' or 'Whoop-whoop, pull up' and then I would flare. Questions?"

In all seriousness, this is why I HATE the HR portion of airline interviews. Go play your amateur psychologist bit somewhere else. All they get are B.S. answers anyway. Anyone can answer a hypothetical question. What they should ask is "Tell me about a time when something happened that was of legal/ethical nature and what you did." In other words, ask about actual experience and not hypothetical. Only a pilot can tell if a prospective pilot is for real or not.

HR people have asked these same crap questions since the Stone Age. It even happened at Kitty Hawk. "So, Wilbur. You show up to the Wright Flyer and Orville is drunk. Do you still try to achieve the first powered flight ever?"

HR interviews are crap. But I guess until I run the world we are stuck with them.

*sigh*