Dropping Below VASI/PAPI

[RiddleRat]

I have heard from several people that dropping below VASI/PAPI is illegal though I cannot find it in the regs anywhere, is it in the AIM as a suggestion or somewhere in the FAR? Thanks...

 

[pilotyip]

91.127 or 91.129 Class D Airspace

Look there, haven't got my reg book right here, but it is somewhere around there.

 

[7B2]

91.129 e

(e) Minimum Altitudes. When operating to an airport in Class D airspace, each pilot of --

(1) A large or turbine-powered airplane shall, unless otherwise required by the applicable distance from cloud criteria, enter the traffic pattern at an altitude of at least 1,500 feet above the elevation of the airport and maintain at least 1,500 feet until further descent is required for a safe landing;

(2) A large or turbine-powered airplane approaching to land on a runway served by an instrument landing system (ILS), if the airplane is ILS equipped, shall fly that airplane at an altitude at or above the glide slope between the outer marker (or point of interception of glide slope, if compliance with the applicable distance from cloud criteria requires interception closer in) and the middle marker; and

(3) An airplane approaching to land on a runway served by a visual approach slope indicator shall maintain an altitude at or above the glide slope until a lower altitude is necessary for a safe landing. Paragraphs (e)(2) and (e)(3) of this section do not prohibit normal bracketing maneuvers above or below the glide slope that are conducted for the purpose of remaining on the glide slope.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Hence the guys that pitch down about 500 ft from the threshold in order to touch down at the 1000 ft marker...

It's really power management....

It is also illegal to touchdown outside of the touchdown zone, but I see that go flying by often.....

 

[JJJ]

(2) A large or turbine-powered airplane approaching to land on a runway served by an instrument landing system (ILS), if the airplane is ILS equipped, shall fly that airplane at an altitude at or above the glide slope between the outer marker (or point of interception of glide slope, if compliance with the applicable distance from cloud criteria requires interception closer in) and the middle marker; and

I wonder how this applys to ILS's that have had the MM de-commisioned?

 

[RiddleRat]

Thanks I appreciate all the help!

 

[Vector4fun]

And that's why we get Cessnas making 80 kt finals from five miles out and then taking 5000' to exit the runway.......

 

[rubberducky]

until a lower altitude is necessary for a safe landing.

In the RJ on shorter runways (shorter for CRJs that is), less than 6500 feet, you have to "dip" a little in order to make the touchdown zone. Which oh by the way the TDZ is only mandatory in Part 121. I'm not sure about 135 but in 91 you can land in the last 1000' if you want. Not smart but legal...

 

[Pickle]

Ducking under

rubberducky said: "you have to "dip" a little in order to make the touchdown zone."

You may want to watch that "dipping", or "ducking under". If you duck under the VASI, or PAPI, or GS, your last bit of the approach path becomes flatter, which can increase the total landing distance. This is out of the ATA 757 CFM.

 

[rubberducky]

Pickle,

Good point. You guys are lucky in the 757 in that you have the leading edge devices to help "tame" your Vref. We aren't so fortunate and sadly the CRJ becomes a runway pig. I just ride the VASI/PAPI a bit low to help get in the TDZ "earlier" in the runway. I don't dip and then rejoin the glide if that's what you mean. Besides we have the suicide dive helping us out.

Thanks

 

[Pickle]

Vref

rubberducky said: "You guys are lucky in the 757 in that you have the leading edge devices to help "tame" your Vref"

HA!!! Come along on the 757-300 sometime (well, whenever we get cockpit jumpseats back anyway) and see what a real nice high Vref is!! Screw the leading edge devices, I am all about the kick-butt brakes!!

 

[bigD]

And that's why we get Cessnas making 80 kt finals from five miles out and then taking 5000' to exit the runway.......

We do that because exiting at Kilo puts us right at Trajen!

I don't fly Cessnas too often, but when in the Duchess or Cougar, I try and give you 140 to short final. The nice thing about draggy airplanes is I can dump 60 knots in just a few seconds. Heh!

 

[thav8r]

The issue of dipping below a G/S or a VASI has actually been ruled on by the DC circuit court of appeals. Several cases have been brought up on appeal and at least two of them, were the result of accidents/incidents.

The courts have ruled not only that you must fly a VASI/PAPI/VPATH, but that making a claim that the V/path is inappropriate for the aircraft type is not a proper defense. The result is that the FAA has now gone downtown with that ruling and has issued several letters of suspesnsions and at least two of those were predicated on careless and reckless.