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DP/STAR question help

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need2AV8

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
81
I have a couple questions on which I'd appreciate your input. Mostly, I am in disbelief that I have any uncertainty in answering these questions myself. I have researched through the AIM and Jepp legend and have not found satisfactory clarification. Next, I turn to my colleagues . . .

Are DP altitudes depicted along a given segment mandatory, if simply "cleared ABCDE DP? What happens if ATC does not give us higher altitude and we are getting closer to the next altitude segment?

With a STAR, if told "fly XYZ arrival and comply with restrictions", is that the same as a "descend via XYZ arrival" clearance? If no, then without further ATC clearance, when can we start to descend?

Thanks again for your opinions.


(Also posted in general forum)
 
sorry for the redundancy
 
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sorry for the redundancy
 
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Cleared altitudes are "hard". If they want to to climb or descend via a DP or STAR you will receive a clearance to "Climb via the XXXXX departure" or "descend via the XXXXX arrival." Actually, I've never been given a "Climb via..." clearance; but "Descend via..." clearances are very common. As always, if you're ever unsure of your clearance simply ask ATC.

Lead Sled
 
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By the way, did I mention that having this solved by tonight would make my day?
 
well the aim states in lost radio procedures about altitudes so you should at least understand them and there are alot of thing that you need to know like say you do the missed approach and go to your alternate what altitude do you fly speaking of which do you go direct or get on a published airway
 
"Join the xxxx STAR"; means stay at current altitude until given a new one.
"Descend via the xxxx STAR"; means follow published altitudes on the STAR
is what someone told me...correct?
 
GravityHater said:
"Join the xxxx STAR"; means stay at current altitude until given a new one.
"Descend via the xxxx STAR"; means follow published altitudes on the STAR
is what someone told me...correct?
That is correct.

Lead Sled said:
Cleared altitudes are "hard". If they want to to climb or descend via a DP or STAR you will receive a clearance to "Climb via the XXXXX departure" or "descend via the XXXXX arrival." Actually, I've never been given a "Climb via..." clearance; but "Descend via..." clearances are very common. As always, if you're ever unsure of your clearance simply ask ATC.
Lead Sled
 
I guess I'm really looking for just the very specific info in regard to: "You're getting closer to the next higher segment on a DP. Do you climb to the published altitude, or remain at last assigned altitude until ATC changes it?" The AIM doesn't mention a "Climb VIA" clearance for DP's.

Also, does a clearance on a STAR that says, "fly the XYZ arrival, comply with all restrictions" mean the same thing as "descend via the XYZ arrival"???
 
need2AV8 said:
I guess I'm really looking for just the very specific info in regard to: "You're getting closer to the next higher segment on a DP. Do you climb to the published altitude, or remain at last assigned altitude until ATC changes it?" The AIM doesn't mention a "Climb VIA" clearance for DP's.

Also, does a clearance on a STAR that says, "fly the XYZ arrival, comply with all restrictions" mean the same thing as "descend via the XYZ arrival"???
To answer your first question, I would definately ask them for a higher altitude - they'll let you know what they want you to do. If you can't get a hold of them then you handle it as you would any other "lost comm" situation. You have to remember that you will seldom, if ever, fly a DP from start to finish as published - you'll almost always get vectors or shortcuts at one point or another.

As far as your second question goes, I don't think that I've ever heard it phrased exactly that way - usually the phraseology is "Descend via the XXXX arrival" In the case where they tell you to "descend via..., comply with all restrictions" I would merely question them as to the altitudes. It's not that big of a deal. Like I said, if ever in doubt of any part of your clearance all you have to do is ask. Most, but not all controllers, use the standard phraseology.

Lead Sled
 
14 CFR 91.123(a) requires that you request clarification from ATC at any time you are uncertain of a clearance. This regulation governs your question at all times.

91.177(b) specifies that the climb to a higher minimum IFR altitude shall begin immediately after passing the point beyond which that minimum altitude applies, except where a MCA is specified. In that case, the MCA crossing altitude becomes ruling.

On arrival and departure proceedures, any published altitudes are not mandatory unless told to climb or descend via the proceedure.

Per AIM 5-2-6, two types of Departure Proceedures (DP's) exist; the Obstacle Departure Proceedure, and the Standard Instrument Departure (SID). Collectively we refer to these as DP's. You may fly the ODB (obstacle departure) without ATC clearance, unless a specific different clearance or clearance to the contrary has been received. In fact, in absence of instructions to the contrary, you should always fly the obstacle departure.

The SID, or standard instrument departure, on the other hand, may not be flown without ATC clearance. Any time you are flying a departure proceedure, weather a SID or ODP, you are always responsible for terrain and obstacle obstruction, weather in radar contact or not. Only when you accept a vector has ATC taken that responsibility. Therefore, if flying a DP and believe that obstacle protection will be an issue due to your altitude, it is your responsibility to query ATC, and in lieu of a clearance or communication, take necessary action to preclude ground or obstacle contact.

When told to comply with the restrictions appended to a proceedure, weather a DP or STAR, you are expected to adhere to the restrictions. That's really quite straight forward. Restrictions may include airspeed and altitude; if told to comply with all restrictions, you must do so unless an ammended clearance is received.

If vectored, or assigned an altitude, those restrictions are canceled. If placed back on the proceedure, any relevant restrictions must be restated.

If told to fly XXX proceedure, climb and maintain 2,000', then you climb and maintain 2,000. You now have a restriction of 2,000, and do not climb or fly in accordance with the published altitudes or restrictions. If you feel that you should climb above that due to a published altitude, then query ATC; you're responsible for terrain separation until receiving a vector. If told to resume the departure, any restrictions that will apply to you must be restated.

On an arrival, you are not to adhere to published altitudes unless told to descend via the arrival. In either case, when told to adhere to all restrictions, you adhere to them unless you maintain an ammended clearance. At all times, if you are unsure, you are required to query ATC.

When given a DP and no climb instructions, or altitude resrictions or limitations, you are expected to climb in accordance with the DP.
 
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avbug,

You da man! I'll be resting much easier tonight - seriously.
 

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