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don't want to go the instructors route?

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rumpletumbler

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 3, 2002
Posts
1,209
What is up with the folks who are low time such as myself who don't want to teach? I'm 41 and I'd like to be heading into the right seat of something as well but I realized fairly quickly when I did get a job with a 135 outfit flying right seat part 91 flights on Citations and other a/c that I didn't have the experience level that I needed to be in that seat. I do realize now that instructing however far removed from that type of flying would give me that confidence, experience that I needed. Anyhow that is what I'm going to do. I'm jobless and I get really tired of hearing folks whine about teaching. What are you? Scared?

RT

Edit: changed a did to a didn't :)
 
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I have flown with a lot of guys from all kinds of diffrent backgrounds. There is no questiion about it the guy that has instructor time is by far a better pilot. Besides he is a lot more comfortable with us crazy captains as we do crazy stuff. Additionally he is a lot more tolerant captain whe it comes to having new hires in the right seat.
 
rt-
Why not look into the (PACE) program that Mesa Airlines has set up if you do not want to instruct.? It is organized and set up to be your fastest route to the right seat of a regional jet or prop. I have had a few students that were against instructing due to age since they were career changers and I have suggested that they look into this program. In my opinion this is the quickest route possible to get to the right seat...


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because I recognize the value of instructing. I want to teach even though I'd rather be doing something else.

RT
 
do it right or don't do it at all...

First let me tell you that you are exactly right about the value of instructing. Just remember that the time you spend instructing is a service other people are paying for. If you really don't don't want to instruct...don't. Most people aspire to greater jobs than instructing, and that's fine; just don't treat your students like another 1.3 in your logbook. Besides you will get sick of it quick if that's not what you want to do right now.

Whatever you decide; do it for the right reasons.
 
Turbo. I have to disagree about the value of instructing making a better pilot.

I have absolutly nothing against any CFI out there, if it weren't for you i never would have gotten this far. However, I dont have a CFI. I got hired flying frieght in MU-2's after I finished my multi (again thankyou Mr. Instructor). Then off to the 121 circus. I dont look back as not having a CFI as a negative impact on my career. I also dont believe instructing makes the pilot. You yourself makes the pilot and utilizing what you learned makes you a better pilot. How you learn that is up to you. Instructng is one way sure, but so is going diffrent routes to gain experince.
 
328dude said:
However, I dont have a CFI. I got hired flying frieght in MU-2's after I finished my multi (again thankyou Mr. Instructor). Then off to the 121 circus.

How many multi hours did you have when you got hired? Anymore of yew bastids get a chance like that? I thought being a CFI was like a right of passage, and due to insurance regs or whatnot, "bigger" boys wouldnt even consider hiring anyone with just a rating :confused:

I've got a four year degree, so do I just shell out 80 grand on some multi time and sell myself out?
 
328 dude-

The situation you describe for yourself is an exception to the rule, and on two counts:

1) Most pilots will benefit immensely from teaching a skill to others. It reinforces all that you know, and gives you a new perspective. At least initially, I think those insights make you a better pilot.

2) Few pilots in the grand scheme of things can go from a multi rating to the right seat on an MU-2. It's great that you found your own "direct track" to a job. Many pilots, myself included think that you missed out on some valuable experience, at the least.

Additionally he is a lot more tolerant captain whe it comes to having new hires in the right seat.

Turbo, you sure have that right. I can tell right away when the guy in the left seat is a former instructor. I will learn a LOT during that flight, compared to having to "pry" info from a non-instructor who acts like my inquiry is more of an imposition than a question.
 
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I still dont see how someone can me more tolerant if they have a CFI compared to those that don't. I have flown with both types and get along fine with everyone no matter what their background consisted of. The same argument could be started with regard to military and civilian pilots. Who is more tolerant?

Timebuilder. I respect your posts and do value your opinion but i do have an issue with this. How is teaching in a 152 on a VFR day over XYZ airport giving you more experience then a freight driver in IFR(mins) (getting iced up) over a difficult airport such as Eagle. CO for instance on the same day. Like I said, I learned alot from my instructors when I was doing all my stuff Part 61. I also learned a great deal in the situations stated above and others by flying with some old timers and some young timers and grasping all that I could.

I dont discourage instructing and dont disagree with the expericnce that you gain, however, I just don't think one is better then the other. I consider then equal.

I had 15 hours and fresh off the fence. They paid me, I didnt shell out 80 grand or 80 cents.

Lucky,,yes, would i do it again,,,yes........

I wouldn't sell yourself out. Stay away from PFT.
 
I don't believe that instructing is a rite of passage. If so, then don't instruct. Those who believe it's something to be endured and a stepping stone to eternal bliss are missing the big and little pictures, and are a hazard to themselves and the flying community at large.

There is no necessity in being an instructor to being a pilot; it's a privilege and an honor to share one's craft with others.

Does being an instructor make one a better pilot? No. But being a teacher does. There exists a great gulf of difference between being a teacher, and an instructor.

An instructor administers a syllabus. A teacher helps a student's mind and understanding expand. An instructor teaches lessons and outlines, while a teacher teaches life. An instructor builds hours, while a teacher builds students and monuments. An instructor eventually lapses, but a teacher is timeless.

I began teaching after I had flown for several companies, and tried different types of flying. I teach now, not of necessity or compulsion, but for the joy of it. To teach is a privilege, not a rite to be endured.
 
At first, I wasn't following you, Avbug, but at the end you and I agree.

I'm from the camp that believes that "instructor" is only an FAA term, and that every "instructor" should be a teacher.

I'm sure that 328 dude has learned a lot from his freight experiences, and his experienced captains as he progressed along. Certainly, his lack of an instructional background was not an impediment to gathering experience. He has likely flown with some people who have taken on the role of instructor by the nature of their job. For instance, when I flew with my father as a youngster I learned by quietly watching him, and imitating his actions when he allowed me to do so. I had no textbook, only a pile of Flying magazines on the window sill in the bathroom. As we flew, he was completely absorbed in his duties, as he had no experience as an instructor, and was completely unprepared to answer my questions. He probably answered his instructor's questions when he was in training because he had to.

My contention is this, and of course others are free to occupy a different position:

1) When you teach flying, or anything for that matter, you are forced to quickly attain a greater understanding of the entire process. As a pilot, you are brought up to speed quickly, as every student question is like a little oral exam. You find the "holes" in you knowlege, and quickly fill them. You make associations in concepts that had somehow escaped you. You not only get to see yourself in your students, but you get to see the growing process of others who digest experiences in different ways. Those are benefits to any pilot, and I don't think it's a stretch to conclude that a pilot is better for having had those experiences. That's not a criticizm of those who never instructed, just an observation, based on flying with both types.

2) As above, I have found the captain who has a background in flight instruction makes learning about the aircraft I am currently flying both easier and more intuitive. He has a comfortable familiarity with passing information to the pilot in the other seat, maintaining situational awareness while speaking and demonstrating a process, and has little problem with flying the airplane through the hands of someone else. It makes for an altogether more positive and fruitful experience. It is, in summary, something he has done before.

Sure, I could be wrong about this generalization, and there are exceptions to almost every rule. I know that I am a better pilot for having given instruction, and I know that I am a better FO for the times I am paired with a captain who has instructed. Since I feel that I am in no way unique, I think my conclusions can be extended to others in similar situations.

Void where prohibited by law, your results may vary, you may not qualify for 0% financing, weight loss is not typical, that depends on the meaning of the word "is", caution this beverage is HOT.
 
Instructing

rumpletumbler said:
because I recognize the value of instructing. I want to teach even though I'd rather be doing something else.
I realize how hackneyed it is to say how much one learns as an instructor. That you learn a subject best by teaching it.

Here's another perspective. Your students turn out to be your best instructors. They teach you by forcing growth, i.e. forcing you to learn. They teach you by showing you examples of bad flying as well as good flying. They teach you how to get along with people by forcing growth of your interpersonal skills. All these items are experiences you need to perform effectively at the next level. These are just a couple of reasons why teaching is such valuable experience.
 
Timebuilder said:
2) Few pilots in the grand scheme of things can go from a multi rating to the right seat on an MU-2.

I agree with your post 100% except for the above. I'm pretty sure the MU-2 is a single-pilot airplane, which makes the person in the right seat little more than ballast. He11, I've even used passengers as ballast from time to time to move the C.G. around, and they've all performed exceptionally well given their limited experience! :D
 
now this is funny!!!

I've even used passengers as ballast from time to time to move the C.G. around, and they've all performed exceptionally well given their limited experience! :p :p :p :p :p

...and im with 328, although i do see the point on both sides. instructing may (and does) have its benefits, but what gets me is that after flying cargo in 135 ops for over a year, in all sorts of wx down to minimums (on more than a few ocassions :rolleyes: ) one can get looked over because there is no CFI ticket in the background.

the few oddball interviews ive heard about (insert favorite operator here) seem to revolve around questions that any CFI worth his salt could answer. but i offer this...stick them, single pilot, in a plane (that actually goes faster than the cars on the freeway in a headwind) that is on the verge of being over gross, in a 20 knot crosswind (nevermind a quartering tailwind) with a few scattered storm cells just off the departure end of the runway (hence the crosswind/tailwind) and tell him to bring it down to the minimums (im talking 1800RVR and 100' ceilings, not that wussy Part 91 crap), and lets see which one of us is gonna get where we need to be, nevermind on time. ill give you three guesses, and the first two dont count :D
 
I think it is a safe assumption to make that this is an argument that can go on forever with two parties never being in agreement.
I don't think it is a case of whether being a CFI makes one a better pilot or not since I do not agree with that at all. IF you want to teach then go get your CFI and if not then simply don't. I think this argument is mixture of frustration, anger, etc, etc, being vented because of the Gulf Joke's, Eagle Jet and Tab Express's of the industry where in fact people are "g i v e n " a short cut for a very steep price and being able to avoid instructing completely and taking jobs away from the CFIs' of the world. This is completely wrong in my opinion but I think that this is where the argument begins

I was flying with a friend last week for kicks who is now Mesa and he went through the MAPD program and is now sitting pretty in a CRJ. Is he any less of a pilot because he never got his CFI??. I would say most definately not since he as well as many others are now 121 qualified at relatively very low TT. I continuously love to refer to the MAPD program due to one key fact and that is they have proven time and time again and again that a very low time pilot who is trained properly is capable of flying a CRJ safely, and the whole nine yards.... bottom line )


I think having the CFI (I) is great because not only does it look good on a resume BUT most importantly because I enjoy the teaching aspect of aviation.

Being a CFI however will not make you a "better" pilot compared to others without it who just lacked the desire, will, or the want to "teach" and have went other routes as 328 has. Is he any less of a pilot than a CFI.?? Come on folks...:D :D :D


C H E E R S

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comprende

Why do so many have such a hard time with reading comprehension. Rumpletumblers original post went like this. "What is up with the folks who are low time such as myself who don't want to teach?

"What is up with the folks who are low time such as myself who don't want to teach? "

He went on to explain why he was choosing to teach. He never said that non-teachers were bad. That didn't stop some from entering the fray to defend the non-teachers. What's wrong, ya'll got a chip on your shoulder?

Now, how about someone answering the question?

regards,
8N
 
Rumbles question was answered. We are discussing the remarks after the original thread.

Does a CFI look good on a resume to a prospective employer? Sure it does. I don't argue that. However, I chose to work my way toward that 1000 PIC turbine time on my resume rather then adding a CFI to my resume.

Now, does a CFI look good on a resume? Sure. Does 1000 PIC turbine look better? Tough question. I guess the guys and gals in HR will decide that one.
 
328- Just how is the average guy on the street going to get 1000 hours of turbine pic?????? Airforce, is the only way I can think of... Unless you know somebody willing to throw a 300 our pilot in a King air, and say go for it......(If you do Pm me I have a lot more than 300 hrs. ) A little reality would be nice..
I have CFIIed in Lots of IMC. And I Fly cargo they both have challenges.. Wingnut, try all that you said and throw in instructing some rich lawyer in his Million dollar Malibu Mirage at the same time..
Everything you do in avaition makes you a better pilot. Teaching helps you learn how to work with different personalities and relaying information to another which is what 121 revolves around. Cargo teaches you how to really fly IFR, not just for fun or when you feel like going. Someone with both experiences is the ideal candidate.. You can take short cuts, but eventually in your career shortcuts will hurt more than help.. And last time I checked ballast time didn't mean much on the res.....
 
wingnutt said:
but i offer this...stick them, single pilot, in a plane (that actually goes faster than the cars on the freeway in a headwind) that is on the verge of being over gross, in a 20 knot crosswind (nevermind a quartering tailwind) with a few scattered storm cells just off the departure end of the runway (hence the crosswind/tailwind) and tell him to bring it down to the minimums (im talking 1800RVR and 100' ceilings, not that wussy Part 91 crap), and lets see which one of us is gonna get where we need to be, nevermind on time. ill give you three guesses, and the first two dont count :D

Yes, you are one bad-a$$ 1200+ hour stud!!
 
Hey guys, what makes some people think that all CFI's are puttzing around in a 152 VFR to get the time. Maybe in Arizona. If you work for a busy school say in the great lakes region, and you are a CFI-I worth anything you should be up there in the stuff with your students teaching them how to really fly an aircraft IFR without killing themselves. What are the freight dogs flying down to minimums that some CFI-I/M isn't flying in while dealing with a student possibly making your situation WORSE, A lance? saratoga? C-210? Baron?. Come on guys, we all know our stuff here. Military/Civilian Freight/CFI. blah blah blah. It's not what you fly, it's how well you fly it. What about the former military guy fuloughed from United flying freight who has a CFI in his pocket. Which team is he on?
 

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