Don't Swear at Crew Scheduling

[tiffanytaylor]

I might get fired from my job because I got mad at crew scheduling and swore as I was hanging up the phone..plus they contacted me on my crew rest when I was checking in at the hotel and I refused the assignment because I was on rest...so my union reps are trying to help me. I know I shouldn't have swore but I had a bad couple of days.

 

[Squirrel29]

That is a sorry crew scheduler if they wrote you up for swearing. That should have no effect on your job. If you was in the right for refusing the trip then you should be alright. But different companies different rules.

 

[Tristar]

One other thing I wish ALL airlines required of their pilots prior to IOE and on an yearly basis, is to have some diversity training in the SOC.. working with a dispatcher and then a crew scheduler at least a few days with each desk.. I firmly believe that this experience would provide the pilots much needed understanding of just some off the things that can go on during a shift which cause changes to pilots schedules and their flights..

That's fine, as long as I can call new hire crew schedulers at the end of their day and tell them they are needed to stay on for the scheduling equivalent of a tail end ferry, but they may have to wait a few hours before it goes, just hang loose and I'll get back to you. I'll call back in six hours and tell them we're still trying to make a decision, but we should know something in the next hour. I'll then call back in an two hours and tell them they need to work another five hours.

At the end of that they can go to a hotel for eight hours of rest (that 8 hours starts now), there will be a van to take them to the hotel. The hotel will be 40 minutes away, the heater/air conditioner won't work or will make a lot of noise, the room will smell foul and/or won't have been serviced, and that van won't really be set up - they'll have to call back and have me arrange it, then it will take 20 minutes to arrive.

I'll call them at least thirty minutes before rest is over with irrelevant changes to their schedule for the next day, then when they arrive back at work inform them the start of their day has been delayed by at least two hours, but we didn't bother to notify them because we wanted them to be there and available in case things changed.

We'll repeat this entire cycle with variations thrown in for a few days (all they while completely destroying their circadian rhythms), and see if at the end of it maybe they feel like swearing at me.

You want us to see the other side, and that's fine. I'm just suggesting that a bit of turnabout would be fair play. (By the way, everything I've listed above has happened to me, often in combined, and usually worse than the scenario I've depicted).

Game on?

BTW - I actually have a very good relationship with most of the schedulers I've worked with, but there are some who truly have ZERO understanding of the havoc and problems they create for crewmembers through their actions. Case in point being one "Midnight Caller" who would routinely interrupt your nights rest to inform you of positioning in two days. Hey, he was up, why wouldn't you be?

 

[WalterSobchak]

That's fine, as long as I can call new hire crew schedulers at the end of their day and tell them they are needed to stay on for the scheduling equivalent of a tail end ferry, but they may have to wait a few hours before it goes, just hang loose and I'll get back to you. I'll call back in six hours and tell them we're still trying to make a decision, but we should know something in the next hour. I'll then call back in an two hours and tell them they need to work another five hours.

At the end of that they can go to a hotel for eight hours of rest (that 8 hours starts now), there will be a van to take them to the hotel. The hotel will be 40 minutes away, the heater/air conditioner won't work or will make a lot of noise, the room will smell foul and/or won't have been serviced, and that van won't really be set up - they'll have to call back and have me arrange it, then it will take 20 minutes to arrive.

I'll call them at least thirty minutes before rest is over with irrelevant changes to their schedule for the next day, then when they arrive back at work inform them the start of their day has been delayed by at least two hours, but we didn't bother to notify them because we wanted them to be there and available in case things changed.

We'll repeat this entire cycle with variations thrown in for a few days (all they while completely destroying their circadian rhythms), and see if at the end of it maybe they feel like swearing at me.

You want us to see the other side, and that's fine. I'm just suggesting that a bit of turnabout would be fair play. (By the way, everything I've listed above has happened to me, often in combined, and usually worse than the scenario I've depicted).

Game on?

BTW - I actually have a very good relationship with most of the schedulers I've worked with, but there are some who truly have ZERO understanding of the havoc and problems they create for crewmembers through their actions. Case in point being one "Midnight Caller" who would routinely interrupt your nights rest to inform you of positioning in two days. Hey, he was up, why wouldn't you be?

Not defending the actions of some less-than-stellar schedulers out there, but that's the career you chose. Schedulers just do what they're asked to do while working within a ridiculous amount of complex parameters set forth by the FAA and your policy manual. If you don't like it, take it up with your representative body (union or otherwise)...and not out on the scheduler who is likely being paid just over minimum wage to be verbally abused all day by people with an overinflated sense of self-importance.

I find it interesting that, when a pilot comes actually visits his/her company's dispatch/scheduling, their opinion of what each group does tends to change a bit...usually to the tune of, "I'll just let them do their jobs because I know I wouldn't want to have to deal with that kind of crap all day".

We all know that there are some idiots in every company's scheduling department...but, there's an equal amount of idiots on the other end of the phone who insist on making every situation that much more volatile.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Don't swear at crew

Well said, Walter!

Not defending the actions of some less-than-stellar schedulers out there, but that's the career you chose. Schedulers just do what they're asked to do while working within a ridiculous amount of complex parameters set forth by the FAA and your policy manual. If you don't like it, take it up with your representative body (union or otherwise)...and not out on the scheduler who is likely being paid just over minimum wage to be verbally abused all day by people with an overinflated sense of self-importance.

I find it interesting that, when a pilot comes actually visits his/her company's dispatch/scheduling, their opinion of what each group does tends to change a bit...usually to the tune of, "I'll just let them do their jobs because I know I wouldn't want to have to deal with that kind of crap all day".

We all know that there are some idiots in every company's scheduling department...but, there's an equal amount of idiots on the other end of the phone who insist on making every situation that much more volatile.

 

[Tristar]

Not defending the actions of some less-than-stellar schedulers out there, but that's the career you chose. Schedulers just do what they're asked to do while working within a ridiculous amount of complex parameters set forth by the FAA and your policy manual. If you don't like it, take it up with your representative body (union or otherwise)...and not out on the scheduler who is likely being paid just over minimum wage to be verbally abused all day by people with an overinflated sense of self-importance.

I find it interesting that, when a pilot comes actually visits his/her company's dispatch/scheduling, their opinion of what each group does tends to change a bit...usually to the tune of, "I'll just let them do their jobs because I know I wouldn't want to have to deal with that kind of crap all day".

We all know that there are some idiots in every company's scheduling department...but, there's an equal amount of idiots on the other end of the phone who insist on making every situation that much more volatile.

While I agree with most of what you've said, I must take issue on a couple of points. Again, I'll preface this by saying I have had a very good relationship with the schedulers I've worked with.

I was even polite to the "Midnight Caller" when he called me in the middle of the my sleep, after 3+ days with virtually no sleep. [see attached story below]

I completely agree there are pilots out there who genuinely seem to believe the "scheduling is out to get me." As you say, I've been there, I've talked to them. I know that much of the time even if there was a desire to "get someone," (and I don't believe there is) they are trying to deal with the crisis du jour rather than implement a Machiavellian strategy.

Points of Order: 1) I did not choose what this career has become (not the schedulers fault certainly). I did not sign up to spend as much time gone as I do, for as little pay as I do, and with the work rules I have. If I had it to do over again, I'd open a muffler shop or something - being a pilot is not worth the hassle. Unfortunately, I'm somewhat painted into a corner by circumstances, so here I am waiting for that rising tide.

2) I take exception to this comment, but the truth is NO ONE has more of a stake/more at risk in the success or failure of an airline than the pilots. With the seniority system that exists, our futures are pretty well moored to that carrier (perhaps not so much at the regional level, but elsewhere), if that carrier sinks, we start over from zero (again, not the schedulers fault). What chafes most of us is when we see incompetence and lack of planning on a daily basis costing thousands and thousands of dollars, day after day. Much of the time (at least at the places I've been) a good portion of this waste is attributable to scheduling, travel, and hotels. I would submit that often scheduling would do everyone a favor by FAILING more often - if flights didn't get staffed due to a shortage of either crews or schedulers to properly evaluate and plan, management (the real idiots responsible for the problems) would be forced to correct the problems. By scraping and scrapping and making due, scheduling is actually enabling mismanagement at higher levels.

I wouldn't want to do a schedulers job, but then again I wouldn't want to do any job where I am not provided with the resources to do the job properly (which I believe is often the case with respect to scheduling).

As I said to start this, you and I are really on the same page here - I don't advocate being abusive to anyone, I actually enjoy most of the personalities I encounter on the other end of the phone. I'm not always thrilled with the news I'm getting, but I recognize in the big picture sense, they are just the messenger.

Okay, I have to share this story - I just have to laugh about the whole thing, but it encapsulates a lot of what I'm talking about (and I'm not embellishing this at all, it's as it happened):

On reserve, assigned a flight from the states to Bahrain (crossing 9 time zones), RON in Bahrain, then position home to the states. So far so good. While in BAH, I call scheduling and ask if there is anything happening, or there is ANY possibility they will need someone in Europe or the Middle East in the next few days, as I'd rather not position home just to position back. "Nope, nothing going on, go home." OK, so be it (cross 9 time zones again, airfare around $2000).

Home less than 24 hours, [phone rings], "Yeah, we need you to position to Abu Dhabi to pick up an aircraft from maintenance." Now, less than 36 hours ago I'd called and asked if there was ANY chance of being used on that side of the planet and was told no (I'm pretty sure the guy didn't even check, but I can't say for sure). Now I'm being told to go back where I tried to stay in the first place. Another $2000 in airfare and ten time zones later I'm in Abu Dhabi, only to learn that the aircraft is delayed in mx and won't be out for several days (that one is on MX control - way to stay on top of things guys).

At this point, I'm experiencing severe circadian rhythm disuption, due to crossing 28 time zones in less than 5 days. While the aircraft being delayed out of MX wasn't scheduling's fault, my having to position halfway around the world twice in 48 hours has to be at their doorstep. I had plenty of days left on reserve, and we always had flying going on around Europe the the Middle East. The smart move would have been to send me to Frankfurt and park me in a hotel for a couple of days and see what evolved - I could have easily been sent where needed.

But wait - it gets even better! I sit in Abu Dhabi for three days, and get virtually no sleep during that time (circadian rhythm disruption). Evening of the third day, I'm dead tired and ready for sleep. I get another call from scheduling, "We've got a problem, you're going non-current. Tomorro we need to position you back to the states to go to the sim..." [Deep sigh on my end - was this trip really necessary?] "OK, I'm exhausted right now. I'll call in the morning and get my positioning info, please don't call me back tonight..."

Three hours later, in the middle of a deep sleep, my phone rings. "Hi, it's ________ in scheduling, I've got some positioning info for you..."

I could have yelled, I could have (justifiably) sworn, I could have just hung up. Instead, I nicely listened and wrote down my positioning info (even though I actually wanted to reach through the phone and strangle him). I then proceeded to spend the rest of the night (and next day) awake. The upside was, I slept well on the flights home (another $2000 and 10 time zones).

Time zones crossed: 36. Approximate airfare wasted: $6000. Sleep lost, stress endured, days wasted: Priceless.

 

[BigFellor]

One other thing I wish ALL airlines required of their pilots prior to IOE and on an yearly basis, is to have some diversity training in the SOC.. working with a dispatcher and then a crew scheduler at least a few days with each desk.. I firmly believe that this experience would provide the pilots much needed understanding of just some off the things that can go on during a shift which cause changes to pilots schedules and their flights..

I firmly believe 90% of our crews have NO IDEA what goes on in that room between maintenance, dispatch, and scheduling. I would love to have some pilots sit in for a day or two (preferably a BAD day) and see how quickly everything goes to hell. Think of it this way; the scheduler is to you as the gate agent is to the passengers. They have NO control over the situation whatsoever (unless you count keeping track of duty times and tell me when a crew will time out), all they are responsible for is making the changes necessary to keep the operation running. Sometimes that means a different trip, or a different overnight. Sometimes that means waiting for a repo that maintenance has been dicking around with for five hours. :angryfire Anyway, to the OP, you have to talk to scheduling for two minutes. We get to sit in a room with them for 10 hours. Trade ya!

 

[WarnerNo13]

I've always tried to encourage my employers to require pilots observe an operation for a few hours a year, just as dispatchers have to spend 5 hours a year in the cockpit doing fam rides. If we are legally both responsible for 121 flights it makes sense to me that they watch and learn why we do what we do, and the obstacles that pop that they may have no idea exist.

 

[PsubS]

We get to sit in a room with them for 10 hours.

Big Fellor, I feel your pain. But comparisons suffer when you look at the fatigue issue. Case in point, after you "sit in a room with them for 10 hours," how many hours do you get off to get home, eat, rest and return?

 

[propsarebest]

Some of us work 12 hour shifts, and live 45 minutes away from work...

 

[shooter]

Some of us work 12 hour shifts, and live 45 minutes away from work...

2.5 hour round trip commute...but I only have that 10 hour shift gig. But my working graveyard 2 on 1 off 2 on 2 off REALLY makes up for that.

It has been getting worse, not better. But I hope that gets to smooth out. As it was said earlier...we all have our crosses.

 

[whaleroast]

Do all schedulers wear do-rags, smoke cigarettes and class up a court room?

 

[Tristar]

That story occurred back when I worked at ATA, so I guess the problem has been resolved (just not in the fashion I would have desired).

Wow.. I think most of here on this thread are dispatchers, and we deal with MX and scheduling as required hearing some of these type of stories but on a domestic basis.. sounds like your airline needs some real management upgrades, maybe a crew coordinator like Airtran has and others.. this person deals only in these issues of crew hours, propper rest, tail swaps and and anticipation of crew needs in certain troubled part of the route structure.. but usually only between 4 time zones at most 5..

I thought we supposedly did have someone with that title, but I could be mistaken. It was always a source of perverse amusement on our part - they built this (allegedly) state of the art scheduling/dispatch/MX control center at the headquarters, with the supervisors/coordinators of each area on a raised platform with their desks near each other. The concept was all they had to do was speak to the person next to them to keep tabs on and coordinate what was happening in the system. Most of the time it still didn't work - dispatch had no idea what MX was doing with a problem, and scheduling was completely out of the loop. Most of the time the crews in the field knew more about what was going on, because we'd use our cell phone (or the ops reps phone overseas) and call each department when things were falling apart!

Your example is brutal, and just stupidity on the company part.. your tried to do your part, but the people with the big picture missed the boat with you..

I often heard that term, but I really question if they had the big picture or not. I know they think they did (and sometimes I'm sure they did), but often I think there is (was) the old attitude of "not invented here." In other words, if they (scheduling, dispatch, MX, management, whoever) didn't have the idea, it must not be a good one. In the case of my little nightmare story, I'd been there at least five years at that point. I knew there was a very high chance of being needed east of 30W in the next week, but no one bothered to consider my input. It's not just me, there were many occasions where the crews in the field had better ideas or ways to save money, but those ideas didn't fit into the box of "how we usually do things," so they wouldn't get approved (or even considered).

The airline business has been disorganized for along time as staffing levels drop and rookies take over the desks, much experience has walked out the doors that should have been captured and turning into procedures and policies.. it saves eveyone money aggravation and sleep!.. BUt as well all know the baest laid and thought out plans can go miss with the unexpected happens, like a broke plane, or weather that turns out to last longer or be more sever than forcasted.. so we all are scrambling around to keep schedules intact and people flowing through the system..

This is absolutely correct! I personally know of two individuals (on two separate occasions) who were positioned from the mainland to Hawaii to reposition aircraft from Honolulu to Hickam AFB (for those of you who aren't aware, they are the same airport, Hickam being at the west end thereof. Aircraft which need to be repositioned are towed from one location to the other). On one occasion the individual being called for the trip tried to ask the scheduler "You don't really want me to do that do you?" Before he could explain the situation, the scheduler responded with "Are you refusing the trip?!?" Properly chastened, he responded "No, I'll do it..."

About ten hours later, he gets off the flight to HNL, multiple messages on his phone from the scheduling supervisor to call ASAP. The conversation went something like this:
S- "Where are you?"
C- "HNL, where you sent me."
S- "You didn't really go did you?"
C- "Yes, your scheduler was very clear I was to position to HNL. You can pull the tapes if you'd like..."
S- "Oh Crap. Well, go to the hotel, we'll position you back home tomorrow."

Stupid mistakes like this (again costing thousand of dollars in airfares and crew costs) wouldn't happen if companies would hire quality people and pay them enough to stick around.

The original poster here must have more to this story than we know about to have his/her job at stake for swearing at someone..

I don't know who the OP works for, but I think you are giving WAY to much credit to Flight Ops Management. There are some good ones out there who are fair, but there are a LOT of people doing that job who are in it primarily to brown nose their way as far up the management pay scale as possible. They will gleefully throw a crew member under the bus (or at least try) if they think it will ingratiate them to the higher ups. Fairness and what's right have nothing to do with it.

 

[onewithwings]

I've always tried to encourage my employers to require pilots observe an operation for a few hours a year, just as dispatchers have to spend 5 hours a year in the cockpit doing fam rides. If we are legally both responsible for 121 flights it makes sense to me that they watch and learn why we do what we do, and the obstacles that pop that they may have no idea exist.

BINGO!!! I've been harping on that for years! You know what their response is? The company would have to pay the pilots for their time and it's not a requirement of the FAA nor their collective bargaining agreement.

However there are a small few who do come sit with me for a portion of the shift. Those that have observed have a a huge respect for our job.

My previous life included a short stint as a crew scheduler. We were NEVER allowed to call crews on rest. Additionally, you need to have respect to get respect.

 

[PsubS]

Fair enough--multiple "crosses to bear" makes sense.

For what it's worth, folks, this is one of the more instructive and CERTAINLY one of the most civil discussions found on FI.

Thanks for redeeming the site!

 

[Mr Wu]

BINGO!!! I've been harping on that for years! You know what their response is? The company would have to pay the pilots for their time and it's not a requirement of the FAA nor their collective bargaining agreement.

However there are a small few who do come sit with me for a portion of the shift. Those that have observed have a a huge respect for our job.

My previous life included a short stint as a crew scheduler. We were NEVER allowed to call crews on rest. Additionally, you need to have respect to get respect.

I don't have a problem sitting in and watching what your job entails but if I have to do it, do I then get to pick what days and flights you do your yearly fam rides? I've never seen a dispatcher on a flight longer than 90 mins and the weather has always been CAVU.

 

[WarnerNo13]

I don't have a problem sitting in and watching what your job entails but if I have to do it, do I then get to pick what days and flights you do your yearly fam rides? I've never seen a dispatcher on a flight longer than 90 mins and the weather has always been CAVU.

There's always a reason why pilots have it worse than anyone else, so this is a familiar theme. Who said a fam ride has to have deadly tornadoes and has to be 5 hours one way? The point is to OBSERVE how a pilot works to apply that knowledge back at the office and learn to make better decisions since joint authority applies to every flight. If a dispatcher has a 30 year career, they've spent a few days in the cockpit. How long did you spend in dispatch educating yourself on how to work better with operations control and your local neighborhood 'spatcher?

If you want to use the the woe-is-me approach, how about I get to pick which of my 70 flights that day I get to be responsible for?

 

[WalterSobchak]

Tristar, I think we are definitely on the same page. I shouldn't throw the "overinflated sense of self-importance" around, but we all know those kinds exist. I was exaggerating a bit. Apologies if you felt that was directed at you, personally. It was not.

I don't have a problem sitting in and watching what your job entails but if I have to do it, do I then get to pick what days and flights you do your yearly fam rides? I've never seen a dispatcher on a flight longer than 90 mins and the weather has always been CAVU.

I go out of my way to find crappy weather observation rides. However, in my case, it is hard to find one when you're dealing with weight-restricted CRJ's. You take what you can get. I do try to at least go to our more restrictive airports like KASE, KSUN, KJAC, etc. when possible. I'll never forget my CAT II ride into KATL, nor will I forget the opportunity I had to fly the CRJ sim in/out of some of our toughest airports...not to mention my commute on F9 into a stormy KDFW. Those flights changed the way I dispatch flights...which is exactly the point of observation.

Fair enough--multiple "crosses to bear" makes sense.

For what it's worth, folks, this is one of the more instructive and CERTAINLY one of the most civil discussions found on FI.

Thanks for redeeming the site!

Thanks for the kind words.

With all due respect to the pilots on the forum, I think the civility found in the dispatch section is just a byproduct the nature of our jobs. In our careers, we are all expected to see and understand the big-picture in addition to the details...as opposed to the "single mission" mindset of a pilot (which is exactly the mindset a pilot should have). I think that typically results in a carry-over of that mindset to our everyday lives and into our message boards. The Dispatch Community is a small one...and we're almost all willing to help people better understand what we do and why we do it.

well it did take two moderator/dispatchers to make that happen.. see we can get along..

Speaking of...what happened to PullToGuns?