Does the instructor have to be a CFII?

[UND84]

Scenario: A private instrument rated pilot is working on their commercial. They need to get the 10 hours of complex time and come to an FBO to fly those 10 hours. They fly with a CFI. The weather becomes IFR. Can that CFI give dual in IMC in the complex plane if he is giving instruction on the complex and not giving instrument instruction? I have had mixed answers with this question and wonder if the instructor needs to be a CFII. I read 61.193 and 61.195 paragraph c and am asking for some clarification. Thank you.

 

[Ralgha]

No, technically they don't need to be a CFII, but it would look odd.

 

[liv'n_on_credit]

CFII question

No CFII is needed, just a normal CFI. CFI's take student pilot's in the clouds all the time without a CFII, and the same works for commercial students. As long as the CFI is not giving any instruction required towards the completion of an instrument rating.

If the CFI is still uncertain about this, just get the CFII rating. It can be added on in less than a week and it's the best investment a CFI can get.

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

If the CFI is still uncertain about this, just get the CFII rating. It can be added on in less than a week and it's the best investment a CFI can get.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[guido411]

These responses are MOSTLY right. Livin-on-credit, you're a little off on the statement about giving dual for the completion of an instrument rating though. A CFI may give dual for an instrument rating so long as 15 hours of the student's instruction is received from a CFII. I might be a bit off on the hours, I don't have a FAR in front of me but I know I'm close. The CFII must also be the one making the reccomendation for checkride.

 

[liv'n_on_credit]

These responses are MOSTLY right. Livin-on-credit, you're a little off on the statement about giving dual for the completion of an instrument rating though. A CFI may give dual for an instrument rating so long as 15 hours of the student's instruction is received from a CFII. I might be a bit off on the hours, I don't have a FAR in front of me but I know I'm close. The CFII must also be the one making the reccomendation for checkride.

Yeah, that's a better way of putting it I guess. The 15 hours falls into the "authorized[instrument]instructor", which is the only part a CFI cannot supply, besides the endorsement.

I encourage all CFI's who don't have their CFII yet to not be afraid to take a student pilot into the soup. Just because you don't have a CFII doesn't mean your students should be neglected the experience of actual IFR. Just don't start signing off IFR students without the big I.

 

[guido411]

Now I agree with ya there, liv'n. Both the student AND the CFI can greatly benefit by flying in the muck and mire. Even if only a private student climbing to VFR or top for some stalls and steep turns. I also agree with yours and texan's comments to just go get the CFII rating. The second easiest checkride I ever took next to my ATP.

 

[JediNein]

The hours for the commercial must be given by a CFII. While a CFI, can instruct in IMC, those hours only count towards the private certificate and instrument experience. That is not considered instrument training" from an "authorized instructor". Ref: Part 61 FAQ

Fly safe!
Jedi Nein

 

[Lil Jon]

The hours for the commercial must be given by a CFII.

you lost me on this??

 

[liv'n_on_credit]

The hours for the commercial must be given by a CFII.

You lost me too...

 

[minitour]

I believe where Jedi was going was: The hours of instrument training given in preparation for the commercial practical test have to come from a CFII ("Authorized" instructor). I'm pretty sure you need 10...been a while since I looked.

-mini

 

[midlifeflyer]

There are two questioins presented by the scenario:

1. May a one-I give dual in IMC. The answer, as so many have already said, is Yes.

2. Can a one-I give the hours of "instrument instruction" required for the commercial? As Jedi pointed out, the answer is No.

 

[UND84]

So, back to the original question. A student goes up to fly the complex with the single I. They are in actual. Who gets to log what. The student can log actual and PIC and the instructor would be getting PIC as well as he is instructing. But, does the single I get to log actual if he is current? Or does only pilot get to log the actual. It doesn't make sense that the cfi could log the actual if he is not a CFII. Thanks...

 

[midlifeflyer]

So, back to the original question. A student goes up to fly the complex with the single I. They are in actual. Who gets to log what.

(I'm assuming the student is properly rated for the airplane) The student may log PIC, actual, and dual received. The CFI may log PIC, actual, and dual given.

It doesn't make sense that the cfi could log the actual if he is not a CFII. Thanks...

Why not? Remember, we're only dealing with a bunch of rules that reflect FAA choices about what the FAA will allow someone to count when applying for a certificate or rating or to show currency. There doesn't =have to= be a connection with what you or I would consider valuable experience.

Part of the key is that the 61.51 logging rules for CFI have =absolutely nothing= to do with acting as PIC, acting as any required crew, currency, medical certificates, or anything else other than the act of providing instruction.

"An authorized instructor may log instrument time when conducting instrument flight instruction in actual instrument flight conditions." Period. No conditions.

(We tend to get too stuck on "authorized instructor" here and try to interpret it way too narrowly - tell me, can a CFI provide the 3 hours of training in flight by reference to instrument in actual and log the time? Of course he can. The only restriction on a CFI is that the training time cannot be used toward the "student's" "instrument training" requirements in Part 61. Other than that there are no prohibitions and the rules are pretty simple.)

Example: CFI, lapsed medical, no FR in 7 years, completely out of instrument currency goes up with an current instrument-rated pilot for a brush up. The flight is entirely in IMC and the pilot is not wearing a view limiting device. The CFI gets to log PIC and actual (and even the approaches if you buy that line of opinion).