Does sending a letter of resignation on furlough really mean anything?

[ThisistheDream]

How much weight does sending a letter of resignation to an airline you are furloughed from really have? I have always heard that when you send a letter of resignation to get another flying job the airline will just throw it out and still offer you a callback in seniority? Is this the practice or just the urban legend of the airline industry? After talking to a NWA pilot he said that NWA will take you off the callback list if you send them a letter? If you send a letter under the impression you where told you would still come back and then later it turns out they say you cant, what can you do to get called back or are screwed since you sent a letter? With alot of airlines now requiring you to resign seniority from a furloughed airline now I am sure there are alot of pilots curious about this.

 

[tbkane]

As far as Delta if you send it in your gone. They will not give it a second thought.

 

[festus]

I agree that in most cases if you send a resignation letter to the company, they will honor it. That being said, there are many more companies now NOT requiring resignations than there were a few years ago because companies realize many qualified pilots may never get the opportunity to return to their original company.

 

[furloughed dude]

As you said, NWA honors resignation letters.

 

[NuGuy]

Yup,

During the last round of furloughs, back in 91-95 or so, it was common practice for the majors to "drawer" your letter of resignation. Meaning it got stuck in a drawer and ignored and they still called you back from furlough.

The upstarts and cargo places lost a ton of people when the majors started recalling, even though they all required a letter of resignation and seemingly got one. I know that FedEx got into a real staffing jam because of it, and I think there were even a few lawsuits over it.

Now days, you can bet if you submit a letter of resignation, it will be processed without delay. Be sure to send your ID...

Nu

 

[Vortilon]

Are you willing to bet the rest of your NWA career on another job that, in the end, will be a short term job? Everyone has to make their own personal decisions but do NOT listen to pilots who say "oh you can't resign your seniority" or "you can arrange a deal with the CPO, etc." They are generally not speaking from experience and aren't the ones taking the risk. Its dishonest and a very risky gamble.

You won't have a leg to stand on when the recalls come and they pass you over because you sent them a letter because you resigned. The HR person that processes your exit paperwork can't tell a "fake resignation" from a real one.

 

[PHX767]

Read the contract

Read the recall provision of your contract. There should be very clear language on the process.


At AA, the company must offer you recall if you were on the seniority list when furloughed. It doesn't matter if you send in a letter or not.

That's why a lot of companies (i.e; Fedex) recognize that a letter of resignation (with many carriers) is worthless. It's the integrity question - A lot of pilots in the past have lied about their intentions.

 

[P38JLightning]

that depends...

Of course that depends on the airline. Here at Comair its a fact that UsAir, American, ACA and other furloughs who wrote the letter and "resigned" are still on the seniority lists of their previous companies. Same went for CoEx and Eagle, only by now if you're somewhere else its because you refused recall and would no longer have a number there anyway, but they let their pilots "keep their options open" as well.

Some have been getting recall offers and some have accepted and others have chosen to be bypassed and recalled at a later date. Others are yet on the seniority list of their previous airline, but still on furlough but with the option to get recalled, despite their "resignation."

So it depends on the airline. I'm not sure about NWA and I don't see anyone risking it, save for the likes of AT and Jet Blue, SWA, etc. I think TKBane is right though, Delta would be one of the few who would chose to honor the letter so anyone would be crazy to risk that, and I don't think too many (if any) have done so (except maybe a few for SWA or AT, as JB doesn't require it in the first place).

I guess that means Jet Blue pilots will have preferential hiring at Delta for life if they ever want it, because they "stepped up to the plate" and helped the furloughed Delta pilots. AirTran and SWA pilots will be blackballed, however. Oh wait, it was a pre-existing policy. Oh well same thing, right General? (ok sorry couldn't resist)

 

[jetblue320]

Jb

As mentioned in previous posts, JB does not require a new hire to resign from previous carriers' lists. We do however, have new hires sign a Non-compete letter which basically states that you cannot return to your last 121 carrier including it's subsidiaries, divisions, or groups for 2 years. As far as the legal ramifications if a person does violate the letter/contract, who knows if JB will go after them. It hasn't happened yet that I know of. It's really kind of a moot point, at least as of today anyway because no airline that I know of is recalling yet. But, it is a thing to consider if you want to leave your options open while you contemplate a job at JB.

C yaaaa

 

[TIS]

It's a good question

It did indeed used to be the case that if you were furloughed a number of airlines would ignore any mention by you of your decision to sever ties with them. I guess they must have figured that they put the effort into finding someone they wanted in the first place. Why just let them go? Things change, minds change. Why not just try to call you back when the time is right, right?

I suppose there are a few carriers who might still do this on a regular basis. It really comes down to corporate culture and not much else. Even when a contract is involved the contract is only as good as the company's good will in honoring it. Loyalty is often a highly prized commodity in this business however, and resignation is sort of the ultimate breach of corporate loyalty.

Vortilon said something above that I think is worth serious consideration because I think this is only one way to look at the situation.

Here it is:
"Are you willing to bet the rest of your NWA career on another job that, in the end, will be a short term job? "

My resoponse to this is who says you have much of a shot at a "rest of your career" at NWA? Who says any job you might take in replacement right now might not be a better job and become permanent? I think there's plenty of room for discussion on those very points. What if the job you're being offered is UPS or FedEx? If it were me personally, I'd be headed out the door of any passenger carrier for one of those guys right now - that is if I were being shown, or had already nbeen shown the door at the pax hauler.

Airline pilots are a funny sort of breed. Their focus is often so intense that they fail to see the obvious even though they're immersed in it like a basket of fries in a deep fat fryer (Burger King ref). Here's what I mean. You're furloughed right? If you get recalled you will wind up back at the end of a seniority list. Perhaps not for very long - you might move up quickly if you happen to be called back in a first wave of many. However, you're still junior enough to suffer another furlough if it gets thick again. It's all in the nature of the seniority system.

Now, let's suppose you get another reasonably good job. Where will you start out? That's right, at the bottom - tail-end Charlie you'll be called - AGAIN! And how many times have you worn THAT T-shirt? No one said you had to like it but they did say that you'd have to live with it, so you do. Over time this too shall pass.

Now, along comes your recall. What do you do? Do you go back to company A or do you stay at company B? Again, I have to ask, isn't it possible that staying at company B might be the better choice? After all company A kicked you to the curb whereas company B soothed your pain. And, oh yes, let's not forget where you'd end up if you went back - that's right, at the end of what is effectively yet ANOTHER seniority list, except this one already has a bad track record with you.

So, let's take stock, shall we? You started at company A at the bottom of their list. That's one. They furlough you and you're off their list. Hopefully, you get another job and you end up at the end of another list. That's two. You are recalled and you go back - to the end of the first seniority list. That's three. Let's add being at the bottom of some freight hauler's list - you had to work there to get a regional job maybe. That's four. Now let's add in that regional. That's five. FIVE TIMES you've been at the bottom of someone's seniority list!

You could make it only four. Think carefully about this because usually by this time, your decisions affect more than just you. it's not just about what you're willing to put up with and be subjected to. Not everyone is a masochist but pilots certainly do appear to have leanings!

What I'm saying is that all in all loyalty is a two way street and if you're on furlough, your company's loyalty to YOU has been breached. I think the simple fact that you actually made it to the street should probably be viewed as the company's failure to keep the promises they made to you and all the other furloughees during the interview and hiring process. In the end, this has to weigh into any decision you make about returning to them.

I would not go blindly into any recall. You could find yourself in a line of lemmings!

TIS

 

[enigma]

What I'm saying is that all in all loyalty is a two way street and if you're on furlough, your company's loyalty to YOU has been breached. I think the simple fact that you actually made it to the street should probably be viewed as the company's failure to keep the promises they made to you and all the other furloughees during the interview and hiring process. In the end, this has to weigh into any decision you make about returning to them.

I would not go blindly into any recall. You could find yourself in a line of lemmings!

TIS

TIS, long time, no talk.

What a refreshing statement. I got sooooo tired of having the loyalty crap drilled into me by a totally unloyal corporate boss that I may never again trust a corporate department manager. Loyalty does go both ways, and it must be earned from both directions.

With that said, (and this, I'm not furloughed and don't have to make the difficult choice) TIMING IS EVERYTHING. If you got hired by a relatively strong company such as AA when you were young, and got furloughed before age thirty, you might want to keep that seniority number. If you finally got hired at UAL in your forties, your timing sux. Life isn't fair, and sometimes it's better to drop back and punt.

Next, integrity. I would never consider obtaining a job by sending in a fake resignation letter to my furloughing carrier. That my friends is a flat out lie and liars can't be trusted. I may not retire with the best pension and largest bank account, but I will leave with my honor intact

Good luck to anyone unfortunate enough to deal with this difficult dilemma.

enigma

 

[Vortilon]

TIS,

I agree...you have to make your own assesment as to whether your future career at the major would be what you really want or not. I just don't think the decision should be made without a great deal of though about the pros & cons and how they apply to your own situation.

I have often thought at how odd it is that I am so intensely loyal to DAL even though I've been laid off from the company longer than I have worked there. I guess its because I'm still willing to place my bets on Delta surviving and even if I have a 5 year furlough, its only 5 years out of 32. While 5 years is not exactly insignificant, the first 2 were great, I'm hoping for 25 more great ones after that. If you enjoy airline flying, a job at at a major is one of the best ones you can have and SHOULD provide you with a nice life and retirement. (maybe). So for now I'm willing to hold onto that dream/goal/sickness.

Currently I have a charter job which pays the bills but its not a career job. Pay is meager, workrules don't exist, and there's no retirement to speak of. There's also no track at flying larger airplanes...making more money, etc. But I am content for now to wait one more year and see what happens at DL. After that, I will be considering leaving this place and perhaps trying for another career 121 carrier. Any job where I don't have to service the lav would be a nice step up.

If I had a pending job offer with UPS or FEDEX I'd ditch Delta as well, but I'm just not ready to make that leap yet!

 

[TIS]

Did I miss something?

let me start my saying that I'm really NOT trying to pick a fight. Really. Now I will say what I have to say - just 'cause it's me. You're standing at the altar waiting for your jilting bride to show up!

Why aren't you trying to get on at UPS or FedEx? They're both profitable and that's not likely to change. They're both gonna be around for the full term of your 25-32 year timeframe, and BOTH will probably pay you more in salary, benefits and retirement than DAL will - given what their current situation is. I know the current negotiations at UPS will likely yield 10 year Captain pay well in excess of $200K/year.

Don't wanna fly at night, right? The night flying thing is a myth that's rapidly falling by the wayside for two reasons. First, the cargo haulers are having to include a geat deal more day flying in order to meet the rigorous demands of next day and second day air shipment schedules. UPS is running a shade over 40% day flying right now and that's likely to improve. FedEx is the same way.

Second, the pax haulers are not all day flying anyway. If you look at identical, or at least similar mission long haul aircraft, what you'll see is that some or all of a great many overseas flights are operated at night, or at least on the wrong side of some clock somewhere - just like the freight guys.

Besides, do you really believe, given the current pax carrier organizational/financial realignment, DAL, or any other major carrier will match parity with, or ever catch the freight guys' $ after it's all said and done? I'm not a bettin' man but if I were I'd bet that it takes a pretty big huka in front of you to see that in the tea leaves.

I'll say what I've always said about freight: People may not be able to afford to fly to see Aunt Martha for Christmas. Or, they might be too afraid to fly to see her, but they WILL continue to send her a package with her present in it EVERY year.

I guess loyalty is a powerful thing indeed. Remember, you won't be offered a job that you didn't apply for and as you well know by now, seniority is EVERYTHING, and seniority is COMPLETELY dependent on timing. Waiting around doesn't help.

Or, put another way won't you be kicking yourself if, in five years, you're a) not recalled yet and, b) not going to be because DAL downsized by 50% in order to remain viable as a long-haul passenger airline exclusively.

Choices, choices, choices. I hope everyone's work out well, I really do! Not all of 'em are easy though and that's a bit of pain sometimes.

TIS

 

[ThisistheDream]

Is there any thing an airline could do to go after another airline for allowing a pilot to go back after they sent in a altter of resignation? Also what if you send in a letter of resignation and then 6 months later you get furloughed by the airline that said they wanted you to send in a letter? so at that point could you resend a letter to the 1st airline and say please restore my seniority now becuase i am now no longer working for the other airline. When you are furloughed you are not an employee so how could anything you do or send in mean anything legally? what if you quit the airline job you have right before your number comes up so at that point your not technically working for that airline anymore so you could tell the 1st airline that letter does not mean anything since i dont work there anymore. What if you send a letter that says i am now working for airline xyz and if in 5 years from now i am still working there and not with you i will resign my seniority? I know these are dumb scenarios but just looking for some kind of loop hole if there are any?

 

[TIS]

They're not dumb scenarios ...

... but you're ignoring the most basic fact of life: Sometimes bad things happen!

On occasion there's nothing any of us can do about the fact that a bad thing has happened to us - like getting rear-ended on the freeway in the middle of a 30-car pileup. Sometimes there's something we should have done a long time ago that might have prevented a bad thing from now landing in our lap - like giving up smoking and drinking (well, maybe not all drinking). And sometimes a bad thing can be traced directly to a decision we made that we knew was a gamble in the first place. These are the scenarios you're trying to come up with a condom for!

Look, you can fight all you want with legal tools - that is if you have to. I'd say a lot has to do with the pilot contract if there is one. Anyway, you certainly have the right to do so but it will be expensive and lengthy and in the end you'll owe a good portion of that salary you fought so hard for to the attorney who led the charge. This, of course, doesn't even address the potential stigma you'll be branded with for having done so.

We all have to make career decisions along the path to retirement. Some will be better than others and ours may not seem as good as the ones others have made for themselves. It may even be that others may seem to have a better array of possibilities to choose from! And you know what? What seems to be might actually be true!!! We call people like that "lucky."

The message is that you do the best you can. If it doesn't seem to be enough you try harder. If that doesn't work you try other things or you become content that this is as good as it gets. No matter how you address life's key decisions it's important to recognize that they're YOUR decisions and the fruit they bear might be the best ever or it might be rotten. It might even be just somewhere in between.

TIS

 

[Vortilon]

TIS,

I understand the myths of all the night freight flying, and I'm sure jobs at UPS & FDX are great. But like I said, I'm not ready to make that leap at this point. As it stands right now I should be back at Delta next spring. Even with the concessions being offered we are short pilots and the recall schedule is expected to stand. Even with a larger paycut, I'll again have a six figure income and flying for a great company....not bragging but sometimes it helps me look forward to brighter days as I scrape by each month with my current job.

You are right...seniority IS everything and if Delta gets its act together again, and I expect it will happen, I should have a very good career. My seniority will be less than 1000 for the last 10 years, and in double digits for the last 4. I won't realize the same seniority anywhere else so I'm holding on to what I've got.

We all place our bets in this business, that for sure. Perhaps I'll take a few new cards from the deck next year but for now I'm letting it ride.

(Pretty good analogy at the end, eh?)