Does FSI have a PFT operation?

[mayday1]

I have a question about FlightSafety and their "right seat direct program." I was initially looking on their website to research their CFI program, when I came across their "advanced airline training" program. To briefly summarize, you enter the program with your commercial, multi, instrument.. satisfy a single engine and multi engine evaluation to the tune of $5300, interview with a regional for a conditional letter of employment, and then return to FSI to complete advanced airline training (basically, level D sim training along with some seneca twin time) for an additional $22,500. Then, upon successful completion of this program, you get a job with the regional - and go through their normal indoc like any other street hire.

Anyway, what do people think about this program? Sounds to me like you're paying $30k for a job, or at least a twist on the PFT thing..?

 

[blade230]

In my opinion, it is not PFT. It is PFJ, Pay for Job. But I think it's with ASA, a good company. Costs a fair amount though. If you got the cash, right on for you.

 

[350DRIVER]

It is with ASA and it costs in upwards of $30,000. Spend half of that and you can rent the right seat of a 1900, Metro, or a King Air with Eagle Jet Intl. You then have $15k left over to spend during a weekend in Vegas... Be smart.

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[Vik]

Its *not* PFT.

PFT is when you pay $30k, get a job at a regional that pays $8/hr (well below what the industry avg is for that job), and your $30k gets you say 250hrs in a B1900, and once your 250hrs are done, you are kicked to the curb. Thats PFT.

You're just paying a helluva lot more to get better training so you are better able to meet the demands as at a Part 121 carrier. Its like people spend $1k-$3k at All ATPs doing the CRJ/RJ/FMS introduction courses.

I have a question about FlightSafety and their "right seat direct program." I was initially looking on their website to research their CFI program, when I came across their "advanced airline training" program. To briefly summarize, you enter the program with your commercial, multi, instrument.. satisfy a single engine and multi engine evaluation to the tune of $5300, interview with a regional for a conditional letter of employment, and then return to FSI to complete advanced airline training (basically, level D sim training along with some seneca twin time) for an additional $22,500. Then, upon successful completion of this program, you get a job with the regional - and go through their normal indoc like any other street hire.

Anyway, what do people think about this program? Sounds to me like you're paying $30k for a job, or at least a twist on the PFT thing..?

 

[bobbysamd]

P-f-t = P-f-j

In my opinion, it is not PFT. It is PFJ, Pay for Job. But I think it's with ASA, a good company. Costs a fair amount though. If you got the cash, right on for you.

What's the difference? P-F-T boils down to paying for a job because it is an employment issue only. In any event,

[Y]ou enter the program with your commercial, multi, instrument.. satisfy a single engine and multi engine evaluation to the tune of $5300, interview with a regional for a conditional letter of employment, and then return to FSI to complete advanced airline training (basically, level D sim training along with some seneca twin time) for an additional $22,500. Then, upon successful completion of this program, you get a job with the regional - and go through their normal indoc like any other street hire.

(emphasis added)

FlightSafety has had the referenced program or some version of it for years. The difference between it and P-F-T is for something to be pay-for-training you actually have to be hired for the job, and all that being hired for a job implies, with that hiring conditioned on you paying the company for your company/FAA-required training. If you do not have to pay the airline or its provider for the indoc training (on top of paying FlightSafety for its training), it is not pure P-F-T.

Although this program is not airline-provided P-F-T, where the profit motive creates a clear trainor-trainee conflict of interest, the same warnings apply. In other words, if you wash out, are there any assurances of your money being refunded - or - how much trouble would you go through to get it back? After all, once someone has your money, it's hard to get it back.

The program sounds like a cousin of ERAU C(R)APT. I'd also go along with Vik's read of it, above.

 

[mayday1]

I agree with everyone.. I'm not considering this program, I just wasn't aware that FSI had something like this.

There is no refund of any monies if you don't/can't complete their program successfully. Worse off, if you wash out of indoc at whatever regional, you're really SOL.

 

[The_Russian]

"PFT is when you pay $30k, get a job at a regional that pays $8/hr (well below what the industry avg is for that job), and your $30k gets you say 250hrs in a B1900, and once your 250hrs are done, you are kicked to the curb. Thats PFT."

Ummm....

GIA doesn't kick people to the curb. They are scouted out by other regionals before they can even take a seat on the street corner. GIA's F/O program is not PFT. None of us buy a job.

PFT= I walk into Comair and pay them 10K for a job that I can have until I retire.

GIA= An excellent training program and experience for low time pilots who want to become marketable. F/O program students do not "take" a seat from pilots because we have permanent F/O's.


And yes, FSI ASA program is a PFJ straight up. It is a good program and very difficult. I cannot say how reliable they are at finding you a job with another regional if it doesnt work out. All the guys and girls that I know who attended that program were pre 9/11 grads and were furloughed immediately thereafter.

 

[Vik]

GIA hires FOs off the street? What are their minimums and how do I apply?

Your definition of PFT obviously conflicts with everyone elses and of course, b/c you work at GIA.

"PFT is when you pay $30k, get a job at a regional that pays $8/hr (well below what the industry avg is for that job), and your $30k gets you say 250hrs in a B1900, and once your 250hrs are done, you are kicked to the curb. Thats PFT."

Ummm....

GIA doesn't kick people to the curb. They are scouted out by other regionals before they can even take a seat on the street corner. GIA's F/O program is not PFT. None of us buy a job.

PFT= I walk into Comair and pay them 10K for a job that I can have until I retire.

GIA= An excellent training program and experience for low time pilots who want to become marketable. F/O program students do not "take" a seat from pilots because we have permanent F/O's.


And yes, FSI ASA program is a PFJ straight up. It is a good program and very difficult. I cannot say how reliable they are at finding you a job with another regional if it doesnt work out. All the guys and girls that I know who attended that program were pre 9/11 grads and were furloughed immediately thereafter.

 

[T-Gates]

GIA doesn't kick people to the curb. They are scouted out by other regionals before they can even take a seat on the street corner.

That may be the case now, but were you at the Stream back in late 2001 early 2002? When things are going well, people are getting jobs. Post 9/11 alot of us were on the curb. And I sat a 1/4 as long as others. It can all change in a heartbeat.

 

[bobbysamd]

Gulfstream street hires

GIA doesn't kick people to the curb. They are scouted out by other regionals before they can even take a seat on the street corner. GIA's F/O program is not PFT. None of us buy a job.

So, what is it, then? Gulfstream will not hire, e.g., a 1000-100 street pilot as an FO. I realize it has hired street captains, though it has started its P-F-T captain program.

Every shred of information about Gulfstream suggests that to start there one must enroll in the paid-training program, fly off the 250 hours and, then, perhaps, be considered for permanent hire. Is there some secret, non-published, back door through which street pilots can be hired at Gulfstream as FOs?

F/O program students do not "take" a seat from pilots because we have permanent F/O's.

But aren't the FO "program students" flying the line along with the permanent FOs (for the $8.00/hour pay)? But for the paid-training FO program, these flights would be staffed by "permanent" FOs. So, seats are being taken.

Finally,

GIA doesn't kick people to the curb. They are scouted out by other regionals before they can even take a seat on the street corner.

Is each and every paid-training FO hired by these regionals? I submit not. So, where does that leave them? Out the money and needing to build more hours until they meet standard regional mins. I realize there can never be a one hundred percent placement rate, but I would submit a significant number of Gulfstream FO program students find themselves SOL after they fly off their 250.

You pay for the training and are put on the line for $8 per hour for 250 flight hours. It is still employment, albeit temporary employment, i.e., P-F-T, P-F-J.

 

[RJFlyer]

I did the FSI fast-track program in 2001. The training was excellent, but expensive.

There were a few people who were having problems with the program while I was there, and a few who didn't pass the checkride at the end. Most of those people got extra training (at no extra cost) and were allowed to take the checkride again. I haven't heard of anyone wash out of ASA who was hired from the FSI program.

Not to mention, after you complete the evaluation flights (the $5300), you are guaranteed an interview with ASA. If you pass the interview, the job is yours to lose. No other school can offer that.

My take: now way is it PFT because you're paying FSI, not ASA.

If I had not done this program, I would probably still be flight instructing and looking for my first regional job, instead of flying the RJ for 3+ years.

Good luck at FSI, the training is unparalleled.

 

[350DRIVER]

Not to mention, after you complete the evaluation flights (the $5300), you are guaranteed an interview with ASA. If you pass the interview, the job is yours to lose. No other school can offer that.

I love it, you spend thousands and thousands of dollars to buy a job to make $25K a year because "no" other school can offer that?!!!!!!!. Most all other schools do in fact allow students these opportunities through a program they call "hard work".

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[Sol Rosenberg]

"PFT is when you pay $30k, get a job at a regional that pays $8/hr (well below what the industry avg is for that job), and your $30k gets you say 250hrs in a B1900, and once your 250hrs are done, you are kicked to the curb. Thats PFT."

Ummm....

GIA doesn't kick people to the curb. They are scouted out by other regionals before they can even take a seat on the street corner. GIA's F/O program is not PFT. None of us buy a job.

PFT= I walk into Comair and pay them 10K for a job that I can have until I retire.

GIA= An excellent training program and experience for low time pilots who want to become marketable. F/O program students do not "take" a seat from pilots because we have permanent F/O's.


And yes, FSI ASA program is a PFJ straight up. It is a good program and very difficult. I cannot say how reliable they are at finding you a job with another regional if it doesnt work out. All the guys and girls that I know who attended that program were pre 9/11 grads and were furloughed immediately thereafter.

Russian, why do you come out of the woodwork defending PFT every time it is mentioned on this message board?

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

GIA= An excellent training program and experience for low time pilots who want to become marketable. F/O program students do not "take" a seat from pilots because we have permanent F/O's.

Permanent fo's, huh? So I'll send my buddy to GIA to interview for a fo position. He has his commercial, with 1500 hours and KingAir time, but no money to pay GIA. Will he get hired Russian?
PFT sucks.

 

[enigma]

I have a question about FlightSafety and their "right seat direct program." I was initially looking on their website to research their CFI program, when I came across their "advanced airline training" program. To briefly summarize, you enter the program with your commercial, multi, instrument.. satisfy a single engine and multi engine evaluation to the tune of $5300, DID YOU MAKE A TYPO ? $5300 FOR AN EVALUATION? interview with a regional for a conditional letter of employment, and then return to FSI to complete advanced airline training (basically, level D sim training along with some seneca twin time) for an additional $22,500. Then, upon successful completion of this program, you get a job with the regional - and go through their normal indoc like any other street hire.

Anyway, what do people think about this program? Sounds to me like you're paying $30k for a job, or at least a twist on the PFT thing..?

Let us first revisit PFT, PFT is not paying for training. PFT is buying a job. Period.

This program is PFT, plain and simple. The airline and FSI are muddying the water by arranging for FSI to accomplish the sim training.

It helps to look at these situations from this perspective. "Is the training you receive good anywhere other than the airline for which it is intended?" or; will the "training" increase your marketability accross the board, or only at the sponsoring airline?

It also helps to look at the applicant. If the participant in this scheme is employable without the program, he's just stupid for spending the money. If he is NOT employable without the program, he's BUYING a flippin job.


enigma

 

[mayday1]

not a typo - $5300 for the eval. Crazy isn't it?

 

[T-Gates]

To The_Russian...

Do you realize that you do more damage than good in theese PFT discussions you engage in? You re-ignite people's hatrid. Do the rest of us a favor and shut up. I stopped caring what people think awhile ago. Stop trying to be the patron saint of PFT. For years I engaged in theese same discussions with Bobbysamd and 350Driver, I grew tired of it. I grew to respect that none of us will change our opinions. But you seem to want to convince the world that GIA is the way to go! I'm sorry, if someone can get into this indistry without paying Tom Cooper thousands of dollars...GOOD! And now that places like Great Lakes and CoEx are hiring with 500-600TT, why should one go pay GIA tens of thousands for 250 hours? I did it, don't regret it a bit, but would I reccomend it to anyone? No! The industry isn't as doom and gloom as it was 3 years ago (And suave marketing did a number on me making me think it was worse than it was) And signing my 250 dollar a month check to the loan company still stings!

From one ex-GIA pilot to a current one...SHUT UP! Please!

 

[Vik]

Great Lakes is hiring again? Minimums?

 

[U-I pilot]

Just checked the website. It says 750/50.

http://www.greatlakesav.com/html/pilots.html

 

[350DRIVER]

Did The one and only Pomeroy jump ship to Alaska Airlines or is he doing a corporate gig in the DIA area?.


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[bobbysamd]

Low hiring mins

And now that places like Great Lakes and CoEx are hiring with 500-600TT . . . .

. . . and minimal multi. Unbelievable how low these requirements are. They can be reached in a few months of 141 instructing; somewhat longer under other situations.

One caveat, from someone who knows. Just because places advertise certain mins doesn't mean you will be called automatically - though you'd think you would. Actual competitive mins may be far higher and mins at other regionals may be higher still. But, it's time to apply and update when you hit the mins.

Having said all that, low hiring minimums undercut one of P-F-T's premises, being able to cut in line in front of others. So, why would expensive, risky and potentially embarassing "First Officer Direct" and P-F-T programs now be a consideration? Think about it.

 

[Vik]

I've heard of plenty of people just a few years ago getting on with GLA with even lower than 750/50. Xjet even today calls people with barely over 600/100/20. They lower the times are, the longer they'll stay before moving on and there will be less turn over at the company.

Forget whether they can fly the plane or not. Thats what the Captain is for. Read the Great Lakes job description .. "Assist the PIC"

. . . and minimal multi. Unbelievable how low these requirements are. They can be reached in a few months of 141 instructing; somewhat longer under other situations.

One caveat, from someone who knows. Just because places advertise certain mins doesn't mean you will be called automatically - though you'd think you would. Actual competitive mins may be far higher and mins at other regionals may be hire still. But, it's time to apply and update when you hit the mins.

Having said all that, low hiring minimums undercut one of P-F-T's premises, being able to cut in line in front of others. So, why would expensive, risky and potentially embarassing "First Officer Direct" and P-F-T programs now be a consideration? Think about it.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

Forget whether they can fly the plane or not. Thats what the Captain is for. Read the Great Lakes job description .. "Assist the PIC".

Probably the main duty an FO does is physically fly the plane. Also, the captain has many more responsibilities than the FO does. Alot of times, the capt. will hand the aircraft over to the FO so he/she can focus on a problem and make the right descisions. A good stick and rudder FO is needed to "assist the PIC" as you stated above. The stick & rudder flying is a relatively small part of the overall picture when you look at what a captain does and what he/she is responsible for. I've seen many fo's who are better "stick & rudder" pilots than their captains are, mainly because their biggest concern is greasin' it on the runway and flying is all they really focus on. A big misconception is that the airline Captain is the "pilot" who flies the plane and the fo is the "co-pilot" who assists the PIC as you stated in your above quote. Both pilots assist each other and work in unison. I've had some really good FO's who have helped me in some sticky situations. It's very important that the FO can fly the plane or not. Just my .02 worth. Sol

 

[bobbysamd]

Low times = low turnover?

I've heard of plenty of people just a few years ago getting on with GLA with even lower than 750/50.

But, I've heard the place brings in tons of people, the training is rigorous and run by highly subjective ground school and sim instructors, and quite a few people wash out. So, there's still a little to be said about experience.

Xjet even today calls people with barely over 600/100/20. They lower the times are, the longer they'll stay before moving on and there will be less turn over at the company.

Which makes sense to reasonable people, but (1) with majors hiring the way it is these days, there will be little turnover anyway, and (2) if they stay longer, they'll go higher up the scale, which will increase payroll and 401-K expense, which, I understand, regionals do not want. In other words, they want people who will not stay and who will leave.

Having said all that, once more, once you hit the mins, send in your resume and keep updating.

 

[jimpilot]

Simeflite has an interesting right seat program for anyone living in the DFW area. In order to handle an odd numbers of pilots in a class, they will train you as a corporate jet SIC (go through the full initial course). You then pay them back with your time. You work as sic for the odd pilot in a training class.

They also have a annual schloarship program for these "right seaters". They give away 3 type ratings a year. Requirements are something like been there at least a year and spend at least 500 hours in the right seat.

Many of these right seaters have gone on to corporate jobs

 

[mayday1]

jimpilot, how does one get on with Simuflite for this program? What are their mins for their SIC program?

 

[jimpilot]

Go to:

https://www.caesimuflite.com/career/rightseat.html

The minimum requirement for applying for a right seat position is the possession of a Commercial pilot certificate with instrument and multiengine ratings.

 

[mayday1]

Thanks jimpilot.

 

[jimpilot]

Let me know if you apply