Does Flt engineer count as total time?

[hmmm]

Anybody seen regs that would cover this.

As Flt engineer if any crossing restrictions or altitude busts or course deviations are made your ticket is in trouble too.

You are just as responcible as the pilots.

You run all the checklistes, emergencies and abmormals.

You run the power on takeoff and climb and in cruise.

Seems if you share the responsibility you should share the total flight time as well.

Need 600 hours more at a 121 regional on jet now to upgrade to captain have 2900 pilot time now. With my FE time I would have 4100 total time. It only says you need 3500 total time, 1000 turbine, 1500 multi.

They are planning on hiring some guys back from the majors who are on furlough which will put me back for 3 yrs or so before I get back in position for upgrade to captain if I don't take it now. Whatch think?

Any FAA clarification out there to substantiate FE time as total time to show the insurance companies. It just specifies total time, not total pilot time.

 

[C-5 MEM]

I have done some research last year. I am a flight engineer with over 3500 hours. I called OKC and asked them and there answer was this. If you are required to be on that aircraft for it to fly you can log it as other time. I have been told from several people that is does not count. It does count. I talked with Chief Pilot at Fed Ex last year and he said they count it as other time as well. I know at ACA I asked them and they took it.

Email me if you have any questions


Terry V.

 

[A Squared]

As far as the FAA is concerned, Flight time is only pilot time as per Part 1. All the experience requirements for pilot certificates require pilot time, except of course the ATP, which has a specific allowance for using flight engineer time. If I read it correctly, 3 hours of FE time only counts as 1 hour of experience toward the ATP.


The thing is, this isn't an FAA question. As far as I can tell, you meet the FAA requirements to upgrade to Captain.

The requirement is a company policy. If I'm reading your post correctly, the company requirement is based on an insurance requirement.
If that is the case, it is up to the insurance company, not someone on Oklahoma City (or anywhere else in the FAA's empire) How is the requirement written in the insurance policy? Does it say "pilot time"? If so, I think you're out of luck.
I think that your only chance is to ask someone in an official capacity at the insurance company (presumably through the chief pilot or someone else at your company) if FE time can be used to meet the captain minimums. If the answer is yes, you're in luck, if the answer is "no" you're out of luck. If you've already gotten a "no" answer and you're looking for something to make the insurance company change it's mind, you're out of luck. The insurance companies make the rules for their policy holders.

regards

 

[tdvalve]

"As far as the FAA is concerned, Flight time is only pilot time as per Part 1."

Not really!! Flight time is the time a person is in the air as a required flight crewmember. (Pilot, Flight Engineer, or Navigator.)
Pilot flight time is the time spent in the air as a required pilot. Pilot time (not pilot flight time) is the time spent fulfilling the duties of a pilot in an aircraft, qualified flight training device, or flight simulator.

In other words, FE time counts toward total flight time but not pilot flight time. Simulator time counts toward pilot time or FE time (as applicable) but not toward total pilot flight time, total FE flight time, or total flight time.

When you're asked "How much time do ya' have", it's not a simple question.

 

[C-5 MEM]

TDVALVE,
Your right on with that. I have been flying as a FE for over 17 years. When I got on with ACA they asked for my total time including FE time. I have talked with several FE's who fly in our unit and who work for the majors and regionals. They all have said the same thing that the company wants and uses there FE time. You want believe how many times this argument has came up. Now I am not barking at anyone in here so don't get upset.
There is only a few FE's who wrote in here talking about the times, and there some who are not. Would you think that the FE's who fly know when they can count the FE time vs pilot time.
When I interviewed with the airlines, I put my FE time down as seperated, but the interviewers looked at that as experience as well.


Terry Vickers
CRJ/FO
ACA

 

[A Squared]

>>>>" As far as the FAA is concerned, Flight time is only pilot time as per Part 1." "Not really!!"

Ummm, yes....really!!

Rather than just contradict me, take a look at the Part 1 Definition of flight time. It says: " *PILOT* time which commences...."

then there's a bit about gliders which is obviously not applicable. I've searched through those 27 words pretty carefully, and I'm pretty sure "flight engineer" or "required crewmember" isn't in there. Yeah there's a little grey when talking about flight time limitations, but generally when the FAR's speak of flight time requirements (like required experience for certificate applicants, or 135 pilot qualifications) they make it pretty clear that it's pilot time they are looking for.


The thing is, and I pointed this out in my previous post, is that it doesn't matter what the FAA, this is an issue with a specific company, apparently the original poster's airline's insurance carrier. Like I said in my previous post, you want the answer for the question asked, ask a representative of the insurance company. If they mean total *pilot* time, that's what they want, regardless of whether the FAA definition includes f/e time or not.

C141FE touched on this with his references to ACA and FED-EX. that's fine, those companies can accept whatever they want. If you look at Southwest's requirements, they very specificly *exclude* flight engineer and navigator time. So what, Neither ACA's, nor Southwest's employment practices have any bearing on the legal definition of "flight time" nor on the policies of hmmm's insurance carrier.

The answer to the original question still stands; ask an offical representative from that insurance comapny (if it is the insurance company that sets the minimums) if they accept f/e time. If the answer is yes, you're in. If the answer is no, well, the answer is no, that's too bad, but it still won't make any difference what the FAA, ACA, FED-EX, or Southwest, says. You can't use those sources to force an insurance company to accept F/e time against thier stated policy.

 

[tdvalve]

a squared: Lighten up and read your post! You keep referring to flight time when you mean pilot flight time. Just because Southwest won't give credit for FE flight time doesn't mean it 's nonexistant.

Don't know about your FAR 1, but mine says flight time starts when an airplane moves under it's own power for the purpose of flight and stops wnen it comes to rest. It doesn't mention anything about a pilot. My FAR 1 also defines a flightcrew member as a pilot, FE, or navigator. Maybe you're mixing the FAR 61 (pilot) definitions in with FAR 1. Seems curious to me that the FAA requires a certain amount of FE flight time for initial certification and currency if there isn't such a thing. Guess they didn't have the benefit of your expertise when they wrote FAR 63 a few decades ago.

 

[A Squared]

C141FE:


>>>>"There is (sic) only a few FE's who wrote in here talking about the times, and there some who are not. Would you think that the FE's who fly know when they can count the FE time vs pilot time. "

I'm not sure what your talking about. If you're trying to suggest that I don't know what I'm talking about because I'm not a flight engineer, you need to read my profile a little more closely. As far as I can tell, everyone who has posted to this thread is a flight engineer, so you can lay off the cheap-shots. Yes, flight engineer experience is experience, valuable experience. I would certainly find some way to include my f/e time in any application I filled out, but I would make sure I knew what the company I was applying to wanted (as you have done) That is not to say though, that f/e time is equal to pilot time, when taken in the context of pilot qualifications. In fact, the part 61 requirements for the ATP seem to indicate the the FAA considers f/e experience to be about one third as valuable as pilot time, for purposes of pilot qualifications. I think we can all agree that if you go to FED-EX with 300 hours of pilot time and 10,000 hours of FE time, you won't stand much of a chance of getting hired.

TDvalve:

Sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way. Let's both lay off the sarcasm, OK?

>>>>"Don't know about your FAR 1, but mine says flight time starts when an airplane moves under it's own power for the purpose of flight and stops wnen it comes to rest. It doesn't mention anything about a pilot."

I can't comment on what is printed in your copy of the regulations, as I don't your copy in front of me. I do know that my copy of the regulations, a 2002 edition published by ASA, clearly states that flight time means pilot time, just like I posted in my previous post. Just to make sure that ASA hadn't screwed up, I checked the copy of the Code of Federal Regulations which the US government makes available on the internet. CFR Title 14, Part 1 says:

Flight time means:

(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing; or

(2) For a glider without self-launch capability, pilot time that commences when the glider is towed for the purpose of flight and ends when the glider
comes to rest after landing.

Maybe your copy says something different, I don't know, maybe it says the same thing and you just didn't read it carefully, or you remember incorrectly. Seriously, and I'm not trying to antagonize you, pull it out and read it ... what does it say?

>>>>Just because Southwest won't give credit for FE flight time doesn't mean it 's nonexistant(sic).

Yes, I agree. That was my point and you seem to have missed it. C141FE referred to the hiring practices of Fed-ex and ACA, as though they had relevance to the question. They don't, no more than Southwest's policies do. The Human resources policies of ACA, Fed-ex, and Southwest are relevant only to hiring at ACA, Fed-ex, and Southwest, respectively.

>>>>When you're asked "How much time do ya' have", it's not a simple question.

Yes, I agree. First you have to determine who's asking and what do *they* mean. In this case, the question can only be answered by consulting whomever established those requirements, apparently the insurance company. He's got enough time for the FAA requirements, so the FAA's opinion on f/e time is irrelevant, and he doesn't fly for ACA, Fed-ex, or Southwest, so their opinions are irrelevant.

As for Part 63, yes, I've read it too. Notice that that they specify "flight time as a flight engineer", which isn't going to have much relevance for Hmmmm's airline's insurance underwriter. I don't think we are going to find printed anywhere in the regulations "Insurance companies underwriting airlines certificated under Part 121 of this title shall include flight engineer time to meet their minimum experience requirements for pilot in command", or words to that effect. That seems to be what Hmmmm is looking for, and it just doesn't exist. He has to ask the insurance carrier, and accept their answer. If the answer isn't in his favor, FAR definitions, or the HR policies of other companes aren't going change that. I think that we've all been in aviation long enough to know that it's really the insurance companies who are calling the shots.

Regards

 

[C-5 MEM]

Are you flying for anyone right now A Squared?


Terry V.

 

[A Squared]

>>>Are you flying for anyone right now A Squared?

Yeah, why do you ask?

regards

 

[flx757]

Don't know about your FAR 1, but mine says flight time starts when an airplane moves under it's own power for the purpose of flight and stops wnen it comes to rest. It doesn't mention anything about a pilot. My FAR 1 also defines a flightcrew member as a pilot, FE, or navigator. Maybe you're mixing the FAR 61 (pilot) definitions in with FAR 1.

Actually, it very specifically mentions pilot . Here are exact quotes from MY FAR Part 1 definitions of "flight time" and "flight crewmember".


FAR Part 1 defines "flight time" as pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing.

It also defines "flight crewmember" as a pilot, flight engineer, or flight navigator assigned to duty in an aircraft during flight time.

It clearly states that flight time is pilot time, and a pilot is separate from a flight engineer, as defined in the "flight crewmember" definition.

 

[hmmm]

more of same

Thanks for replies. Checked with someone in cheif pilots office yesterday. Although ti wasn't the cheif pilot who is away.

This concerns 9E / Express One / Pinnacle.

No word on specifics.

Helicopter time; counts only if you have prequisite fixed wing time?

Level 3 Sim time; the person acted as though they were dissatisfied that they have to count it, but said they have to because the FAA says it counts it as total time.

At that answer it colored my next question on FE time.


I asked well if the FAA counts 1 hour of time out of 3 towards total time required for your ATP (which I have) can I count 500 of my 1600 total 121 FE / Second Officer time as total time.

Answer... no. Clarification.... None. And I wasn't going to push it but I would like to have it clarrified by the chief pilot and a legal clarification by the FAA.

I have heard of a suit against a major airline by some FE's that had many years as 121 FE and due to recent layoffs were put out on the street not in line with their seniority number due to the company saying they had not enough total time to upgrade to FO and more recently hired FO's got to keep their job. This involved downsizing the airlines fleet from 727's.

Anyone hear of this. ALPA must be involved with or know of this suit.

 

[tdvalve]

A Squared wrote: "I can't comment on what is printed in your copy of the regulations, as I don't your copy in front of me. I do know that my copy of the regulations, a 2002 edition published by ASA, clearly states that flight time means pilot time, just like I posted in my previous post. Just to make sure that ASA hadn't screwed up, I checked the copy of the Code of Federal Regulations which the US government makes available on the internet. CFR Title 14, Part 1 says: "

Well, A Squared, you got me there. Thinking that the definition of flight time would be set in stone, I referred to the nearest FAR 1 book, a 1997 publication from the Govt Printing Office. Apparently the definition was changed after 1997 to the version you quoted. Now it makes no sense at all: FE's, Navigators, and airplanes no longer accumulate flight time, at least according to FAR 1. Therefore, there's no way to meet the requirements to become a flight engineer.
Somebody had their head up their butt on this one!

 

[C-5 MEM]

Squared

Don't get offended, I just asked a simple question on where you work. And you respond in a defensive way. Tell you what don't bother. I know your kind.

 

[A Squared]

>>>>And you respond in a defensive way.

Hey! You've totally misinterpreted my response, C141FE.

It was just that, I answered your question and asked why you were interested, nothing more than that. It wasn't supposeed to be defensive. Send me a PM if you want to chat.

regards