DL vs. AAI Part...

[HomerJ]

Will Delta's battle against AirTran lead to a 'predatory price war?'​

After a more-than-two-year absence, Delta is expected to announce today that it will return to Stewart International Airport near Newburgh, N.Y. That keeps with Delta's apparent strategy of matching rival AirTran destination by destination. But Delta's arrival also appears to have Stewart officials worried that the airline's new service ultimately could be bad for fliers there. It was just on Jan. 11 that AirTran began flying to Stewart, which is in the process of being groomed to become the New York City area's fourth airport. Tanya Vanasse, Stewart's marketing chief, tells MidHudsonNews.com that while she's happy to have Delta back at the airport, she is also " … a little skeptical in that it seems that they (Delta) are doing this just as a mechanism to counteract what AirTran has done."
Vanasse adds that she expects Delta to match AirTran's fares on the Atlanta-Newburgh route. And if Delta runs AirTran out of the market? "We have seen here what Delta's pricing will be like when they don't have competition,"she says to MidHudsonNews.com. As for Delta's service, the Poughkeepsie (N.Y.) Journal says the carrier "plans to go head-to-head with newcomer AirTran" with three daily flights to Atlanta beginning May 7. Delta was the second airline to sign on at Stewart when it opened to commercial service in the early 90s, says the Times Herald-Record of Middletown, N.Y. But the paper writes that Delta "pulled out in August 2005 because of cost-cutting efforts aimed at staving off bankruptcy. At the time it was running only two flights a day, to Cincinnati, through its affiliate, Comair." Delta spokesman Anthony Black says market conditions have changed since then. "I think an opportunity exists today for us to re-enter the market and compete," he tells the Journal.
Still, Delta could face something of a cold reception from regional leaders. John D'Ambrosio, leader of the local county's chamber of commerce, tells MidHudsonNews.com that he hopes Delta does not start a "predatory price war" with AirTran. "When I look at a new airline coming in, ... what I really want to see is someone who is committed to our community and intends to stay and not just start a predatory price war. I hope that’s the case with Delta."
And this isn't the first time a smallish airport has bristled at Delta's competitive response to AirTran. In January 2006, leaders at Central Illinois Regional Airport (CIRA) in Bloomington railed against new service from Delta. "This is Delta trying to weaken AirTran and trying to weaken our market," CIRA's airport chief said at the time. "Delta's not interested in growing our market and investing in our community," he added. And in August 2005, officials from two airports -– Central Illinois Regional and Quad City International in Moline, Ill. -– also publicly questioned Delta's competitive response to AirTran, saying that the Atlanta-based carrier's moves ultimately could hurt their communities.

Posted at 09:19 AM/ET, Feb 13, 2007 in AirTran, Airport news and route changes, Delta | Permalink | Comments (5) TrackBack (0)

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[~~~^~~~]

Weird - when AirTran comes to town everyone says "Great! More competition," when Delta comes to town everyone says "Oh no, a potential predatory price war." That is kind of a stupid statement when Delta usually puts an RJ on the route whuch can not go head to head with a 717 on CSM.

Perhaps it is the locals' tax structure that they are concerned about. After 9/11 the US Government has thrown BILLIONS at these smaller airports for upgrades which now the locals have to maintain at their own expense.

When you walk through small airports and see Bose 901 speakers ($1,500 a pair) being used for the PA system in place of $79 units it sure makes you wonder if the airports got so much Federal money that they simply don't know what to do with it all. The problem for the airports is that after it is built, they have to maintain it with local taxes. Maybe they should list some of this stuff on E-Bay since it is better quality that 98% of us have in our Home Theater systems.

 

[HomerJ]

AirTran responds: New service 'will just be another money losing route for Delta'​

In response to Delta's plans to expand to New York's Stewart International Airport near Newburgh (see below), AirTran spokesman Tad Hutcheson offered this response: "We apparently do the route planning and scheduling for two airlines -- AirTran Airways and Delta Air Lines. It's a compliment that Delta thinks so highly of everything AirTran Airways does that they attempt to copy it. In the final analysis, it will just be another money losing route for Delta." JB does route planning for DL as well...

 

[gt1900]

When is DAL gonna start worring about DAL and stop worring about putting AAI out of business, they had their chance in the 90's, and blew it.... Just shows that DAL still hasn't learned thier lessons.. Even if DAL prevails and knocks AAI out of the market, it will cost DAL way more than it will AAI.. DAL needs to start thinking about how to make money, instead of how to put AAI out of business...

 

[~~~^~~~]

AirTran spokesman Tad Hutcheson offered this response: "We apparently do the route planning and scheduling for two airlines -- AirTran Airways and Delta Air Lines.

Cute... how about ATL to nearly everywhere AirTran flies - which Delta did first.

AirTran may not be able to play the underdog role and have it play favorably much longer. It is a statement of AirTran's strength that comments like this have lost their "cute" quality.

AirTran used to like competition. Now that Delta is much leaner and meaner the fact AirTran is complaining tells us something.

 

[General Lee]

When is DAL gonna start worring about DAL and stop worring about putting AAI out of business, they had their chance in the 90's, and blew it.... Just shows that DAL still hasn't learned thier lessons.. Even if DAL prevails and knocks AAI out of the market, it will cost DAL way more than it will AAI.. DAL needs to start thinking about how to make money, instead of how to put AAI out of business...

We are growing INTL flights where AT does not go, and doing well with the turn around plan. But, we still have some left over RJs, so why not compete and put them up against AT? Will they lose money this Summer? Maybe not, all seats will likely be full and may be profitable, and many of those passengers may be continuing on to places AT doesn't go, making those tickets profitable. (like South America or the Carribbean---or Dothan, AL). And, we served SWF long ago with MD88s, when Airtran was still Valuejet. Quit crying.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[737 Pylt]

AirTran responds: New service 'will just be another money losing route for Delta'​

In response to Delta's plans to expand to New York's Stewart International Airport near Newburgh (see below), AirTran spokesman Tad Hutcheson offered this response: "We apparently do the route planning and scheduling for two airlines -- AirTran Airways and Delta Air Lines. It's a compliment that Delta thinks so highly of everything AirTran Airways does that they attempt to copy it. In the final analysis, it will just be another money losing route for Delta." JB does route planning for DL as well...

Homer:
Just wondering......If your company does so well, why don't you service the smaller markets like CHO, ACY,TOL or any small sized market like that? It's real easy to cherry pick routes and make money. That's brilliant strategy by your management team (no pun intended) but you're leaving out the smaller markets that don't have service from Jet Blue and don't even know who you are! At least Air Tran services the smaller markets! They are now a little worried as DL has trimmed its costs, and has gotten its casm's even lower than that of Southwests. Air Tran pilots are unhappy right now with their contract negotiations as well, thus their costs are going to go up.
I guess I'm just curious why a JB pilot would care about Air Tran/DL?!?

737

 

[gt1900]

Hey..I'm not crying at all... I'm sure AAI would love a little competition.. AAI still has the lowest operating costs there is, so I'm sure they aren't worried... And I don't see that quote as complaining.. Just a fact.. If DAL does use RJ's, their is no way in hell they will make money on that route, yes, they can get pax to ATL and put them on mainline, but the RJ can't compete with the 717 in seat mile costs..

 

[HomerJ]

Homer:
Just wondering......If your company does so well, why don't you service the smaller markets like CHO, ACY,TOL or any small sized market like that? It's real easy to cherry pick routes and make money. That's brilliant strategy by your management team (no pun intended) but you're leaving out the smaller markets that don't have service from Jet Blue and don't even know who you are! At least Air Tran services the smaller markets! They are now a little worried as DL has trimmed its costs, and has gotten its casm's even lower than that of Southwests. Air Tran pilots are unhappy right now with their contract negotiations as well, thus their costs are going to go up.
I guess I'm just curious why a JB pilot would care about Air Tran/DL?!?

737

I don't care about AAI/DL at all. I do care what DL has been trying to do to JB almost since day one. Competition is fine, but irrational route overlap and brand copying is something different. None of it profit driven to boot. We start service to a smaller market, and sure enough, there is some crappy regional in DL colors right there the next day. Good luck post BK, it will be interesting...

 

[michael707767]

Just a fact.. If DAL does use RJ's, their is no way in hell they will make money on that route, yes, they can get pax to ATL and put them on mainline, but the RJ can't compete with the 717 in seat mile costs..

In a route system as large as Delta's, there is no way you can be sure flying this route, even with an RJ, will not make money for Delta. Very few of the passengers who fly SWF to ATL are passengers who will get off in ATL. Most will be connecting passengers.

So if a passenger buys a ticket on Delta to go from SWF to FLL and pays $300 round trip, how much of that do you allocate to the SWF-ATL leg? And even if Delta loses $20 on the SWF-ATL leg, how do you know if they are not making an extra $25 on the ATL-FLL leg?

Neither Delta nor AirTran flies exclusively between SWF and ATL with no connecting possibilities beyond ATL. So to argue about who will make money on one specific route is largely irrelevant. It is what the addition of that route does for the system as a whole that will matter.

 

[ASARJMan]

And, we served SWF long ago with MD88s, when Airtran was still Valuejet. Quit crying.
Bye Bye--General Lee

As did ASA for years, and CMR, albeit RJs.

STRIKE ASA!

 

[formerdal]

AirTran responds: New service 'will just be another money losing route for Delta'​

In response to Delta's plans to expand to New York's Stewart International Airport near Newburgh (see below), AirTran spokesman Tad Hutcheson offered this response: "We apparently do the route planning and scheduling for two airlines -- AirTran Airways and Delta Air Lines. It's a compliment that Delta thinks so highly of everything AirTran Airways does that they attempt to copy it. In the final analysis, it will just be another money losing route for Delta." JB does route planning for DL as well...

Sounds like a good plan.....Wendy's did it for years. Let McDonalds spend the money to find a location and then build a Wendy's right next door. Sounds pretty smart to me!!

 

[737 Pylt]

I don't care about AAI/DL at all. I do care what DL has been trying to do to JB almost since day one. Competition is fine, but irrational route overlap and brand copying is something different. None of it profit driven to boot. We start service to a smaller market, and sure enough, there is some crappy regional in DL colors right there the next day. Good luck post BK, it will be interesting...

Ok, so when its JB coming into a market and lowering prices its competition, but when its DL coming into a smaller market its "brand copying?"
Riiiiight!
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but JB didn't invent passenger travel. This whole industry is based on copying what your competition does and try to offer a better price, or in JB's case, product. Look at what LCC did to DL, by applying for China service.....They're trying to put on hold DL's application with the DOJ while they try to get their application in, and they don't even have the equipment to do the route!

737

 

[dtfl]

I don't care about AAI/DL at all. I do care what DL has been trying to do to JB almost since day one. Competition is fine, but irrational route overlap and brand copying is something different. None of it profit driven to boot. We start service to a smaller market, and sure enough, there is some crappy regional in DL colors right there the next day. Good luck post BK, it will be interesting...

Wow. How much blue kool aid did you drink at recurrent or on IOE recently?

 

[DougsRule]

We start service to a smaller market, and sure enough, there is some crappy regional in DL colors right there the next day.​

That's call competition and price is KING! (I'm still amazed to see people get on us (B6) and say...whats the head phones for?)

For so long B6 walked into others markets and said here we are, undercut the cost to build market and thumbed there nose at the competition.

Now you're saying that's unfair? I'll bet you also say that it's unfair competition because DAL is in Chapter-11 and they don't have "real" costs.

 

[pit717]

the stupidity of "market share is the most important thing" even in bankrupcy continues....it wont be as easy to reorganize the next time....for some reason everyone on this board (except the obvious people)want airtran out of business and have wanted that for quite sometime......its not gonna happen.....move on to someone else.....

 

[pit717]

hey dougs...........delta's about to have real costs and im willing to bet that there going to be just as real as before if they keep doing things like this.....which they will

 

[Britpilot]

Now that Delta is much leaner and meaner the fact AirTran is complaining tells us something.

The "much leaner and meaner Delta" is still losing money. They are focused on putting AirTran out of business instead of making themselves profitable.
Where does it say AirTran is complaining? The comments were from the folks there in Newburgh.

 

[FDJ2]

The "much leaner and meaner Delta" is still losing money. They are focused on putting AirTran out of business instead of making themselves profitable.

DAL just posted its third consecutive quarterly operating profit and its first full year operating profit since 2000.

 

[FDJ2]

hey dougs...........delta's about to have real costs and im willing to bet that there going to be just as real as before if they keep doing things like this.....which they will

DAL has the lowest operating CASM of any of the network carriers. That won't change when DAL exits BK.

 

[Ty Webb]

Their costs may be lower (we'll see soon) but if they stick to Leo's failed methods of trying to compete against AIrTran by dumping seats into AirTran markets at a price below Delta's cost, they will be bleeding red ink again.

.

 

[twepilot]

I disagree emphatically...The day DL exits BK their CASM will be the lowest they will see..ever...Day 2 the costs start edging up.

RV

 

[Heavy Set]

hey dougs...........delta's about to have real costs and im willing to bet that there going to be just as real as before if they keep doing things like this.....which they will

Are they just competing with Airtran to ATL from SWF, or could there actually be many connections made thru ATL on DL? Maybe the summertime is busy to the Hudson Valley, and maybe Delta wants to make some real money there again? They also stated they were returning to Bozeman, MT nonstop from Atlanta, Jackson Hole, Wyoming, Vancouver, Canada, and Boise, ID for the summer too. Would you accuse them of going after Airtran on those routes too? Delta is in expand mode, and if they have left over RJs they will put them where they maybe can make money. Didn't AT start summer only service to SEA from ATL? After DL already flew that route? No way! I think DL should start crying.....

And, Delta will start paying for "real costs" soon, after they shrank their debt from $20 billion to $7.5 billion. Good for them, and watch out AT. If you need to go Bankrupt too, you are free to do so.

 

[gt1900]

I don't think its so much that DAL added service to Stewart. Its the way they did it. They pulled out several yaers ago most likely because they weren't making any money, but as soon as AAI started going to Stewart, DAL announces service back into a market they couldn't make work then. If DAL couldn't make it work then, why are they trying to make it work now??

 

[Heavy Set]

I don't think its so much that DAL added service to Stewart. Its the way they did it. They pulled out several yaers ago most likely because they weren't making any money, but as soon as AAI started going to Stewart, DAL announces service back into a market they couldn't make work then. If DAL couldn't make it work then, why are they trying to make it work now??

They also used to fly MD88s in there before they flew RJs. Maybe they pulled out when they had to use the RJs somewhere more profitable and didn't have spares. Maybe they have more RJs available now. Delta does the same thing with their routes, like Boise,ID. They dumped the service quietly over the Winter, but just stated they would return for the Summer. If they have 3 RJs doing the service to SWF this Summer, I bet they scale down to two or even one flight over the winter. Airtran does the same thing to SEA, and they will do the same to SAN this Summer. Everyone is looking for full planes and the most revenue potential. Maybe things are looking up for the Hudson Valley now, and they weren't a year ago. Jetblue just announced A320s into HPN, and I don't see AT jumping up and down mad at them. Is JB copying AT? They are looking for solid revenue in a shaky environment. Everyone is.

 

[737 Pylt]

I disagree emphatically...The day DL exits BK their CASM will be the lowest they will see..ever...Day 2 the costs start edging up.

RV

And your basing this on what???
For the Air Tran guys that think that DL hates Air Tran and is trying to put them out of business, I have news for you.... DL wants Air Tran in ATL, because it keeps AA out.

737

 

[tubelcane]

You mean SW out of ATL don't you?

 

[twepilot]

Fact and opinion. Fact...on knowledge of BK code and procedure. Opinion...speaks for itself.

RV

 

[737 Pylt]

Fact and opinion. Fact...on knowledge of BK code and procedure. Opinion...speaks for itself.

RV

Waiting on facts......Please provide them!
I'll time you with a calander!

737

 

[Eagle757shark]

HELLO AIRLINE PILOTS ON THIS BOARD, GO BACK TO FLYING YOUR AIRPLANES. Are you kidding me! You guys are whining about who flys where? Give it a rest! Each airline has a route structure that they'd like to provide to their customers. That means you are going to go to cities where other airlines fly. The KEY is can your airline do it competitively and turn a PROFIT! That is the name of free enterprise! At your cost, if you can't compete you will find other options. When Delta comes out of Ch.11 it will be nice to compete with a corporation that is hopefully trying to turn a profit. If not, that corporation will be visiting the courts again. Remember, the bankruptcy laws have changed. The last airline that filed under the new laws is no longer in business. So if AirTran and Delta and Jetblue and winky and dinky can all fly into Newburgh and turn a profit to enhance their route structure, more power to them. OKAY... back now to prepare my Valentine Dinner!