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DL goes on offensive at JFK

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PEZ,

Maybe I was wrong in stating it like that. No offense please. There are probably many ways to account for things like that, I think it is called "Arthur Anderson style Accounting".

And, I just got an Email stating that the negotations fell through again. Looks like without a good deal, we will continue on towards section 6 negotiations. That sucks. Well, atleast the pension reform came in and that will give us some more time. Let's hope this economy continues to get better and more people travel. Maybe the negotiators will meet again and come up with a better proposal---for everyone's sake.

Bye Bye--General Lee;) :rolleyes:
 
There are probably many ways to account for things like that, I think it is called "Arthur Anderson style Accounting".

Oh, so you know where RR worked before Comair? :D :D

Too bad about the negotiations... that fell through quickly... too quick!???
 
DALPA is in no hurry to negotiate concessions and revised scope limitations. Like Eastern, Pan Am, Tigers, and Braniff, the union will tell their membership that management is manipulating the numbers and union members will believe them. I heared Mike Pinho admit to having lied to the membership and the press, but he explained it away by saying that as Communications Chairman he was only reflecting the mood of his pilots.

The new Delta CEO makes about $60,000 more than a line check airman on the 777. Hope Delta gets more than what they pay for out of him.

Like the Air Force pilot who began his split S a thousand feet low - I would start watching who bails out.


http://www.avweb.com/newspics/tbirdcrash.mpg
 
Fins,

Ah ha---your prediction about Dalpa delaying because of "revised scope"-----you want more CR7s and probably 737s. Nope. Fins, people kinda hate RJs. I will get you a WSJ article explaining that. And we probably will not be competing as much with the LCC mainline equipment with our RJs, because we will lose. Also, most line checkairmen on the 777 do not make that much money, but the potential is there because DELTA has greenslips in place instead of hiring back some of the furloughs. We only have 8 777s, so how many 777 line checkairman are there? 10? And Fred Reid still makes well over $1 million a year, Grinstein chose to make $500,000 a year in hopes to sway us, but everyone else still makes the same and Grinstein is 71 years old. (Probably not here for very long....) You keep twisting the facts my friend.

But, if we were to get closer to Chap 11, there will be a bunch of pilots bailing out--no doubt. Then, in Chap 11, we could get our costs in line with UAL---cut those lease payments on planes and gates, etc.... We would end up with something like UAL's contract, and you guys would get Mesa's. That would suck, and I hope they eventually get back to the table, but time is running out. Why? Good Ole Frank Lorenzo convinced an arbitrator way back when that because they were continuing meaningless talks before their section 6 bargaining, that constituted "actual negotiating", and that immediate arbitration was needed. We won't fall for that one. Delta could have IMMEDIATE help right now---probably around 20%--which would also include other beanies that could give them $400 million or so in savings NOW. But no, Grinstein wants to compare us to USAir (already in Chap 11 and not with our current cash position of close to $3 billion) saying "We have learned from the USAir position---we can't keep coming back to the table." When they would come back to the table Grinstein would be golfing in Maui, on retirement. That is BS. We are not currently like USAir---nope. Will we be like that? I don't know, and I hope not, but they will have to negotiate like good ole boys because we aint the other non union people without a contract----we pay protection money to protect our interests. I bet they will try again, especially before our May raise. We have the paycuts waiting---they just have to agree to our terms which will give them immediate help.

Bye Bye--General Lee;) :rolleyes:
 
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Here you go Fins:

Posted on Sun, Dec. 21, 2003

Some travelers say regional jets are a headache

BY PAULA SZUCHMAN

Wall Street Journal

Like a lot of veteran travelers, Jim Forster likes to use his time on the plane for everything from preparing for meetings to catching up on paperwork. So a recent three-hour flight to Daytona Beach, Fla., seemed like the perfect chance to talk shop with a colleague.

Good plan -- wrong plane.

He'd been booked on a 50-seat regional jet for the trip, and when he tried to get down to business, the engine noise was just too annoying. By the end of the flight, the 47-year-old executive had accomplished little more than reading a magazine. It "wasn't conducive to talking to anybody," he says.

It's also the future of aviation.

Once the province of short hops, these small jets now account for almost a fourth of the U.S. airline fleet, with 1,200 flights daily at Chicago's O'Hare alone. Instead of one-hour trips, the minijets are moving into three- and even four-hour hauls.

The majority of airlines serving Wichita use regional jets on their routes. Of 52 daily departures from Wichita Mid-Continent Airport, 42 are on regional jets. That will increase by two in January when AirTran switches to regional jets for all of its Wichita flights.

The minijet movement just keeps growing. With more than $16 billion invested in these aircraft in the past three years, the industry plans to keep stepping up their use, with hundreds more on order.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
But, as fliers are beginning to notice, regional jets are far more cramped, too small to bring much luggage on board and so tight that passengers get full-body contact with strangers. And they're a lot noisier.
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According to a noise test of two dozen flights, the din of a minijet can go as high as 87 decibels, more on the tarmac. That's louder than a factory floor or a passing freight train -- and almost double the noise level of most big jets. For flight attendants, it's so loud that some unions are pressing for noise-control regulations. "It's fatiguing," says American Eagle flight attendant Bill Hennessey. "We've all learned to read lips."

Airlines say that the comfort level isn't all that different and that people haven't complained to them about the noise. They also say the planes have been a boon that's kept service in many cities up in the post-9/11 era. But while the noise levels the decibel meters found aren't considered harmful to hearing, travelers say it can be taxing to hold conversations so loudly or to wear earplugs for so many hours. And medically speaking, acoustic experts say, the decibel levels can contribute to everything from sleep deprivation to stomach problems. "It's a stressor," says Randy Tubbs, a psychoacoustician at the federal National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health.

All this comes as something of a step backward after years of ever-bigger -- and ever-quieter -- jets. Back in the '60s, narrow-bodied planes such as the DC-9 and the 727 used loud, military-style engines mounted on the side of the plane's fuselage. But newer "high bypass" engines cut noise drastically, not only helping lower the racket near airports but also making life in the cabin quieter. It didn't hurt that most wide-bodies moved engines out onto the wing and farther from passengers' ears.

Then regional jets started making a splash in the early '90s. Originally these 40- to 80-seat planes were meant to replace turboprops on commuter routes, with their jet speed -- 500 miles an hour -- slicing flight times by a quarter or more. It didn't take the airlines long to start trying them on longer flights -- an experiment that kicked into full gear after 9/11, when the industry's worst travel slump made downsized jets look even more attractive. Now minijets are increasingly crowding bigger aircraft off mainline routes such as Atlanta-Philadelphia and Newark-Minneapolis.

But smaller planes also mean a whole new experience for many. Most minijets, for example, have luggage bins too small for many carry-ons, including the ubiquitous "roll-aboard" suitcase. There's only one lavatory on most, and galley service is limited: drinks, but usually no food. Some people, of course, are also scared of the planes, even though their safety record is excellent. And then there are the low ceilings, often no taller than 6 feet 1 inch and a full foot shorter than the narrow-body Airbus A320's. Even the flight attendants are smaller -- on Continental's regional jets, there's a 5-foot-9 height limit.

Then there's the noise. Flying from Tucson to Denver, for instance, cabin sound levels hit 81 decibels at cruising altitude and jumped to 90 on the tarmac. The highest cabin level: 87 on a United Express flight to Washington's Dulles Airport.

How loud is that? According to the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, it's like standing beside a busy freeway, while other experts compared it with a passing train from 100 feet away. By comparison, most of the big jets were in the low-to-mid 70s, which experts say to the human ear is about half as loud as the highest minijet readings. One tip: Where you sit makes a difference, with meter readings eight decibels higher from the back of a Continental 50-seater flight to New Orleans. Window seats were also consistently louder than aisle spots.

For their part, most airlines say they don't test noise levels on their planes and aren't required to, but they insist comfort isn't being compromised.

Size-wise, travelers on minijets do get seats comparable to coach sections of most bigger jets, and Delta, for one, says customer-satisfaction surveys for its regional flights are similar to those on the giants in its fleet. Delta also points out that regional jets are, after all, quieter than many of the turboprops that used to serve many small markets. Commuter airlines, which often operate minijets on behalf of mother-ship airlines, also say passengers aren't complaining.

And as airlines are quick to point out, small planes can mean more service -- no small thing in a travel slump. They also facilitate many nonstop flights. "We're starting direct service in communities we never could have served before," says a spokeswoman at Continental, where 222 regional jets now account for nearly 40 percent of its fleet.

Even so, even plane manufacturers say airlines could do a few things -- such as removing rows -- to make life a little easier on minijets. It's possible to quiet down the cabins, but it would require carrying around extra insulation -- which adds weight and fuel costs. Fancy corporate jets usually include more of the soundproofing, bringing levels down into the 50-decibel range -- well below the noise we found on regional jets.

Either way, travelers can expect to see much more of small planes in the next few years. US Airways has an order for 60 of Canadair's 50-seat model -- and 85 of Embraer's latest jet, which is taller and wider. Delta is bringing in another two dozen in the next year -- but no new big jets until 2005. Overall, the Federal Aviation Administration estimates regional jets will make up 35 percent of domestic fleets by 2014.



Bye Bye--General Lee




;) :rolleyes:
 
My center seat in a Jurassic period Delta 737 was so comfortable from ATL-TUL!!
What a B.S article. Here is your reality when people only want to pay 99.00 round trip. And, it will only get worse. The high paying biz fare is gone, gone, gone. I am not sure what the answer is given market conditions. I am impressed with Delta's roll out of Song but Legacy carriers cannot compete with LCC'S by there very nature of the hub and spoke. And, IMHO the health of the economy is at stake if the hub and spoke went away. In the end, I hope we at Connection can help out for our part but the real improvement needs to be from Mama D. Thoughts?
 
Wil,

I agree, the 737-200 is not the most comfortable plane out there (I was an Express pilot in MCO for 1 year), but it is a little better than the 50 seat RJ. People want the 1st class seats for an upgrade (probably don't want to pay for the 1st class fare though)---and businessmen expect those larger 1st class seats, even on the 737-200.

As far as negotiations go, I hope they go back to the table soon, but not with the bogus offer. I am willing to take a paycut to help out, but not get TAKEN in the process. Our MEC has the books, and knows the numbers. To say that we have to take this large paycut with no chance of recovery for a long time (5 years or so..) because of what may or may not happen sometime in the future is unrealistic. We know we can give them help now, but want a chance to get it back sometime in the future if things improve. There are many ways to cut costs, and not only from PILOT PAY.

Take care.

Bye Bye--General Lee;) :rolleyes:
 
Delta bringing the 200s out of the desert shows the need for that class of aircraft, and the need for first class to keep the business class traveler happy. Many of the RJ segments can't stay that way when the RJ is more expensive per seat-mile. DAL's delay in shifting more flying back to mainline may be negotiation tactics. Similar to USAir withholding new aircraft orders in the 90s as part of their negotiations, which led to them getting into the 90s travel boom too late.

Delta has an opportunity to use it's variety of aircraft to tailor to different markets' needs. The question is how hard are they willing to work at it. They have a potential player with Song and may just let it sink because of the dinosaur management. They can't play the same "pilot pay" tune exclusively. Salaries have to be in line but there has to be a business plan that focuses on business, then a pitch to get labor involved.

The remark the other day about "selling houses" was just allegorical, but after past experiences I'm a little defensive.

Stick to your guns, and make sure negotiations are truly two-sided, and not just a golden parachute for management. Too many blood suckers have already left with more than their fair share.
 
Delta Contract

General Lee:
Hadn't you better be looking for a job on the side?
I just read where your MEC Chairman was recommending you "store up some walnuts." because it looks like hard times are coming.
I can't help but notice that you are always mentioning INTL routes... like they wiil be your savior. Those INTL routes, for the most part, are routes that I once flew, that you acquired from Pan AM. I recall you guys dumping us at the last minute forcing a Chapter 7. The INTL routes didn't save Pan Am and they won't save you. I highly recommend you leave this board and acquire some additional skills because you are looking more, everyday, like the company I used to work for.
 
F9driver,

Thank God I have pretty good seniority, and even before a possible Chap 11, many would bailout, leaving me where I am at in the same seat, with more pay than you ever got. Our INTL routes will help us this year, and that will slow down the Chap 11 talk. We also have many assets (ASA/Comair, planes, terminals) that we could still sell or mortgage, and we just got pension reform that will give us an estimated $250 million cushion this year alone. What are my other skills you ask? I have plenty, and I can always go to another carrier--I am 39 years old. I don't have kids and my wife doesn't mind moving. With the Olympics this year in Greece, we should do great (we are the only American carrier to Greece), and the economy is getting better. You should know better----negotiators always try to scare you first---they want you to give in---don't fall for the first offer. And, Dalpa actually used the media today---in our favor--"Our hopes are Fading, we wonder why managment will not negotiate with us, but the door is still open for awhile....." The company had NO COMMENT. HAHAHAHA

Maybe if I lose my job, you and I can set up a lawn mowing business---but I will be PIC. I'll have you home by 8pm every night except Sun. Enjoy that retirement.

Bye Bye--General Lee:D ;)


PS--also, during your Pan Am demise, you had no domestic network, no feed, and you had the lockerbie crash. You lacked cash (we have close to $3 billion), and sold off your routes. Don't blame us---you should have bid the Shuttle or the Airbus and you would have been at Delta instead of Frontier. Don't be bitter.
 
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Here ya go General, you seem to like the newspaper articles. These free tickets should bring customer satisfaction to an all time high when most find out that their chosen locations and/or dates are near impossible to redeem. Will be interesting to see how many get burned by this "bait and switch" tactic.


These round-trip tickets pose challenges to bargain hunters
By Bruce Mohl, Globe Staff, 2/1/2004

American Airlines and Delta Air Lines are blanketing Bostonians with promotions offering a free round trip anywhere they fly, but Peter Bronk of Newton reminds travelers to read the fine print closely before packing their bags.

ADVERTISEMENT

The promotions, designed to counter the arrival of jetBlue Airways here, offer a free round trip anywhere the airlines go to passengers who fly two round trips out of Logan International Airport by April 15 to either Florida or California.

With round-trip fares as low as $200 to Florida and $278 to California, the free trip can be had for as little as $400. Dream destinations abound. American flies to 250 cities in 40 countries. Delta offers 285 destinations in over 30 countries.

The full-page ads promoting the offer set Bronk's mind racing. He and his family were already flying on Delta to Fort Myers over the Martin Luther King Jr. Day weekend. Just one more similar trip and they'd all qualify for the free flight. Maybe, Bronk thought, it was time to visit his brother-in-law in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

"It was almost too good to be true," he said.

But as Bronk began poring over the promotion's fine print and asking questions of a Delta customer service representative, he quickly learned it wasn't going to be that easy.

First, Delta doesn't fly to Kuala Lumpur. The airline does fly to Tokyo, so Bronk began researching what it would cost to fly free to Japan and then pay for a connecting flight to Malaysia.

Second, the promotion had a number of restrictions. To qualify, applicants had to be frequent-flier club members and take those two qualifying round trips by April 15. (Also, Delta shuttle flights did not qualify.) Applicants who qualified for the free flight would receive their award certificates four to eight weeks after April 15, or about the beginning of June. That would leave 10 months until April 15, 2005, when travel on the free flight had to be completed.

Ten months sounds like a long time, but eligible free seats under the promotion are not plentiful. The seats are the same ones frequent fliers are trying to reserve. As the ads state: "Inventory is limited and seats may not be available on all flights or in all markets." Reading between the fine print, that means the more exotic the destination, the more improbable there will be seats available.

Bronk said the Delta agent told him there were almost no seats available to Tokyo when he wanted to fly in early June, and returning was even more problematic.

With a wife and two children, finding travel dates to other destinations at other times of the year wasn't going to be easy, either. Travel under the promotion is prohibited around Memorial Day, the Fourth of July, Labor Day, Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Year's, as well as February and March school vacation periods next year.

Officials at American and Delta declined to itemize the availability of seats on any specific flight, but said travelers with flexible travel plans should be able to take advantage of the promotion.

"Customers have an entire year to cash in the award ticket, so we think there will be ample opportunity to find a flight, especially since the award ticket isn't limited to any particular destination," said Andrea Rader, a spokeswoman for American.

Delta officials noted their SkyMiles members redeemed 2.8 million award travel tickets in 2002, a 17 percent increase over the previous year.

"Popular destinations during peak travel periods may be a greater challenge for our customers seeking to use free award travel," said Delta spokeswoman Katie Connell. "We advise our customers to plan well in advance and be flexibile in their travel plans."

Alan Krensky, president of Colpitts World Travel agency in Dedham, hailed the promotion as a great value. "There is a reasonable amount of inventory if you have a flexible schedule," he said.

A Delta official also tracked down some seats to Tokyo for Bronk and his family in early June, but cautioned that they may not last until June, when award certificates under the promotion get mailed out.

It didn't matter. By then, Bronk had returned from his trip to Florida to discover that the return leg of his flight was a low-cost "T" fare that didn't qualify for the promotion, so he was back to square one.

"They can do whatever they want, but I think it's sort of setting a trap for people," Bronk said. "Anybody that's counting on it, it's a real bait and switch."

Gareth Edmondson-Jones, vice president for corporate communications at jetBlue, said he had no way of knowing whether the American and Delta promotions had cut into his airline's sales, which he characterized as strong. Like Bronk, he advised travelers to read the fine print of any promotion.

"If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is too good to be true," Edmondson-Jones said.
 
True, but you can't give away too many seats, we OBVIOUSLY need the revenue. There are certain flights that frequent flyers want--like flights to Hawaii, and Delta just returned the ATL-HNL nonstop for that purpose. They are realizing that we need to have flights to fun cities---so the business travelers can take their families to fun places during their time off. But, there are only a limited number of seats allowed, and they have to plan ahead.

"Delta officials noted their SkyMiles members redeemed 2.8 million award travel tickets in 2002, a 17 percent increase over the previous year."

But, they are trying. A friend of mine at Flight options was about two trips short of "Silver Medallion" status (frequent flyer), and Delta later called him up and said they were awarding him that status anyways--which allows pre-boarding and other small things that allow for upgrades etc. He really appreciated that, and I hope they continue to support our best customers....

Bye Bye---General Lee






;) :rolleyes:
 

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